Archive through February 28, 2005

Janny Wurts Chat Area: Arc 3: Alliance of Light: Fugitive Prince, Grand Conspiracy; Peril's Gate & Traitor's Knot: Traitors Knot Discussions: Morriel / Selidie: Archive through February 28, 2005
   By Michelle-Louise on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 07:44 am: Edit Post

Hell yes.

Sometimes it seems awful that people like Elaria are unable to ask for assistance because they are unaware of it... How can the dissemination of knowledge of the LOMB be against the LOMB?

P.S. How can Selidie ask? Where is she?


   By Trys on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 01:39 pm: Edit Post

Perhaps it is not unlike Star Trek's Prime Directive. That is, to offer information unasked for to someone who is not ready to receive the information would be changing their development as a person and, perhaps the most important, their spiritual development.


   By Auna on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 02:39 pm: Edit Post

As irritating as it may be, if the F7 started telling people they could do stuff, then people would do it based on a powerful being telling them instead of them coming to realize it themselves. That would then blur the boundary between free will and being influenced.


   By Blue on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 11:43 pm: Edit Post

SPOILER ALERT!!
You have been warned!

I am just wondering how OBVIOUS Arithon is going to have to make himself or how many times Morriel/Selidie is going to have to be whacked upside the head with the proverbial two by four before she gets the hint and leaves him alone?

Let's see, how many upsets has she suffered now, some of them directly at Arithon's hand?

1. Elemental tempest in CotM, when Arithon (With Lysaer in concert) rejected her "useage" of Elaira's feelings to spy on him.

2. "Corruption" of Elaira, a promising initiate

3. Making herself look foolish, thus losing said First Senior's awe of her competence - This was implied in CotM, and stated outright in PG.

4. Suborning a promising First Senior - Lirenda was fascinated by him, a break in "flawless" persona needed to use the Waystone safely.

5. Threatening the continued Koriani succession - prophesied in WoV using the restored Waystone.

6. Plot to assassinate Arithon thwarted by Dakar in WoV.

7. Useage of Waystone curbed by Fellowship "meddling" while said stone was in Sethvir's custody.

7. Overthrow of her plot in FP, leading to the humiliation and disgrace of said First Senior.

8. Putting up with a dingaling (Selidie) while Fionn Areth grew up to further humiliate Lirenda. (You have to admit, re-reading some of the passages in FP and GC that Morriel seemed to be truly masochistic putting up with a total incompetent.)

9. Possessing Selidie, thus "usurping" her body. The mind boggles, whatever happened to Selidie herself? Illegal and immoral and against every Koriani code of propriety and decency.

10. Using Elaira to "get at" Arithon, knowing he is the "stepchild of cleverness." Though in CotM, she stated that he was not truly clever when he was being honest, he was just using s'Ahelas farsight to stay one step ahead of her.

11. Burning/wreckage of her hands, after spying on Davien in PG.

12. Enslaving Lirenda's free will totally. Yeah, good idea, THAT'LL shut her up - and keep her from issuing warnings about things like what happens in # 13...

13. Waystone turned from Amethyst to Ametrine by an Iyat Arithon sent after her, for threatening Feylind.

Morriel/Selidie does not strike me as being particularly bright. Why does she insist on going after someone, in spite of all of the above upsets (and I have probably forgotten to list some!) and setbacks? Is she a masochist, truly? Is she just a dumb, dangerous mad hag?

What about the rest of you? I think Arithon's statement in PG "A hatchling crow has a better memory." is all too true.


   By laneth_shadow-walker on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 05:22 am: Edit Post

Blue,

That was outstanding...while I feel kinda
uncomfortable bagging out 'someone' who lives
in the recesses of our beloved author's mind,
I agree wholeheartedly....It's getting tiring
how she just relentlessly tracks him and plots...

But even more annoying is the simple fact that
her plans have so many obvious flaws.

My speculation on the state of Morriel/(Selidie)
Prime as a character would be that her rote
understanding and usage of the Koriani
Order's Arcane Knowledge would not be tainted,
if only slightly, but her Will and her Self
may be slightly damaged for the time she has
spent alive.

Technically speaking, she isn't anything in
comparison to the Fo7 in terms of power or
self-contained awareness, or even Arcane
training, so her longevity has come at a high
price in that it's dulled her wits slightly.

Then again, we don't know exactly what goes
on inside that semi-translucent skull of hers
as she guards herself and her thoughts/feelings
through the rank of Prime Matriarch of the
Order...

Any thoughts on what her vigil will turn out,
hinted to at the end of TK?


   By Trys on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 12:56 pm: Edit Post

Please be careful about spoilers outside the spoiler topic.


   By Bradford on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 12:22 pm: Edit Post

I haven't read Traitor's Knot yet (in the States) but I think that you might be judging Morriel a little harshly. (Also, I haven't posted on these boards before).

Certainly possessing Selinde is unethical and evil, and Morriel has bent her order's own rules to carry out her plots. But she's merely using the resources available to her to carry out what she feels is humanity's destiny.

What you suggest is blindness and stupidity (i.e. she persists despite setbacks) could also be interpreted as a firm belief in a vision for a better world for humanity. Things worth fighting for rarely come easily, and she operates under the handicap of the Fellowship of Seven. The Fellowship ITSELF pities her even while they're exasperated with her-- for they themselves were in her position in the past.

In terms of spying on Elaria via "compassion", that's simply a clever trick. Elaria herself gave that tool willingly to her order, and Moriel took advantage of it. Scrying isn't an attack-- Arithon became offended (understandibly) and retaliated... which has led to a lot of his problems. The entire Mistwraith series is filled with characters who seem incapable of talking to one another, asking for help, or listening to each other's perspective. Has Arithon ever considered just talking to the Korani order about how to set their fears at rest without him becoming a prisoner or being killed? As far as I can tell, Arithon hasn't even considered it!

Arithon is incredibly arrogant-- at times, more so than Lysaer. Has Arithorn ever asked the Fellowship about what their plans are or why? He always wants to take up the world's burdens (while complaining about it) without ever asking whether anyone else can help-- or worse yet, refusing help of people that offer it. Stupid, stupid, stupid. Why not ask for advice from the Fellowship? Has he ever considered asking if the gift of compassion can be lifted from him if it's such a curse? Why not sit down for a few days and ask for someone to teach him the history of Aeretha? I would love to see Arithon get whacked up side the head a few times with a two-by-four so he was a little less arrogant and high-handed towards the people around him.

The Fellowship have their own issues. They are powerful and apparently, fairly wise out of sheer life experience and exposure to the Paravians. Yet they are still human, and they have a certain amount of conceit. For all their talk about free-will, they act as if they lack any of their own. They're always walking around being mysterious waiting for people to ask them for their help... but why don't they ask for help themselves?

Why not ASK the Korani order for their assistance with the wraiths from Marak? Why not TALK to Morriel about her possession, or offer to aid with the Waystone (clean it up) and the Koriani succession? Why not explain to Lysaer of the concerns of the wraith invasion and the killing of talent? Why not ASK Davien for the secret of becoming corporeal again, so that our two Fellowship wraiths can become incarnate again?

Just because the Fellowship shouldn't dictate terms to others (taking others free will) doesn't mean that they can't ask for others assistance themselves. They are prepared to ask for the assistance of the elements, but not the assistence of ordinary people. We, as readers, see that all matter is sentient, but the people of Aretha don't have the advantage of that insight. How are they supposed to know that domination of the environment is inappropriate? The Fellowship itself learned this only from hard experience. Who says that that the Fellowship's view of what humanity should do is correct? The Fellowship are really just forest rangers in charge of a game preserve. They have a job to do-- protect Aethera from destruction and overdevelopment-- but beyond that, they're (1) free agents and (2) no better judge of what's a good or bad idea than anyone else. No one died and made them God.

They have CHOSEN to carry out their caretaking via the lines of the five kings, but why should that governmental structure remain in place? Are the people of Aethera to be deprived a voice in their own governance? Is the rule of the five kings the only way to maintain the compact, or is that simply the way that was selected? Has anyone-- mayors, Fellowship Sorcerers, clansmen, Koriani ever thought to have a dialogue with each other and tried to reach an agreement that would preserve the Compact?

No one seems to know exactly what the compact says at this point, because the Fellowship seems to keep that information fairly close to it's chest.

The closest anyone seems to be to actually talking to one another is Ath's Initiates. They seem to have a sense of humor, too.


I love the series, but I find the refusal of anyone (Fellowship, Arithon, Koriani, the Mayors) to talk to one another and actually explain their positions and goals and try to reach some sort of understanding frustrating. A lot of misery would be avoided if they would...


   By Hannah on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 12:56 pm: Edit Post

Bradford,

That was an interesting post. I always enjoy listening to someone play devil's advocate and rail against what are develepoded paradigms about the series are.

If you've ever read a stock romance novel, you've experienced the frustration of these contrived plots that hinge on the fact that the characters are too prideful to actually talk to each other about their problems.

But this series is a lot more complex than "I saw him kissing another girl and now my heart is broken." For most of the problems Athera and these main characters are experiencing, there is no easy solution that will satisfy everyone.

I think you give the Fellowship too little credit. Over the thousands and thousands of years they've been alive, I think they are beyond the point of "still human." I believe that they really are beyond the point of being susceptible to petty human emotions such as vanity, foolish pride, etc.

They also have the ability to study the future and the possibilities that their actions could bring to life. They've resided in Athera with the Koriani for many many moons now, and I have to believe that if they thought there was any good to be gained from approaching them at this point in history, they gladly would.

Also, Davien has effectively distanced himself from his colleagues, so it really isn't as if they can call him on the phone or send him an e-mail to ask about his secret. Plus, we ourselves haven't yet conclusively figured out what he is doing, switching between apparent corporeality and discorp. at a whim. Who's to the say the Fellowship doesn't already know how he is doing it, but just choose not to use the same technique for whatever reason? Also, with the F7 being so shorthanded, it's rather convenient to have at least one of them that can span the continent in a few second, and I doubt they have time to spare to spend on questions like that.

I think there is one scene in Traitor's Knot, I was going to point it out to argue against Arithon being 'incredibly arrogant', but then I remembered that you haven't read it yet. But anyhow, there is a scene that shows just how little Arithon places his own good name and reputation over the well-being of his friends and complete strangers.

I would be careful to avoid confusing arrogance with confidence, self-assurance, competency, or mad-cap genius. I'm not saying that neither Arithon nor the F7 have made mistakes. I love the series because they have made mistakes and been wrong. The Fellowship aren't demi-gods, sitting around with laurel wreaths on their heads judging lowly humans or providing vague pearls of wisdom to aid on grand quests.

Let's face it, in the real world there are some people that cannot be reasoned with. Whether or not Morriel could be reasoned with, I would be amazed and dumbfounded if she was able to made to understand how wrong she was being, how her Order violates the laws they were given. She's more than a little mad, with or without the fresh body given by her posession of Selidie

Hitler was unethical and evil. I'm sure he also believed what he was doing was for the good of humanity... Can you imagine Winston Churchill or Roosevelt showing up on his doorstep with a "C'mon, can't we just talk out our differences?"

Interesting thoughts...

Hannah


   By max on Monday, February 28, 2005 - 06:11 am: Edit Post

Does anyone actually know what happened to Selidie? Is she still present and crouching in the corner of her own mind? Or was she ousted when Morriel took possesion and her spirit is dead.?
I don't see Arithon as arrogant but I can see how he comes off that way. He is self-sacrificing to the point of suicide. That actually is a form of arrogance. One can see this in a doctor who refuses to let a patient go when they have passed beyond medical help. If they take that failure on themselves I want to yell at them, 'You are not God!! You don't get to rescue everyone and you don't get to win all the time. Sometimes it is out of your hands'