Archive through July 05, 2006

Janny Wurts Chat Area: Arc 3: Alliance of Light: Fugitive Prince, Grand Conspiracy; Peril's Gate & Traitor's Knot: Traitors Knot Discussions: Spoiler Topics: Royal Lines: Archive through July 05, 2006
   By neilw on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 12:05 pm: Edit Post

The clans weren't "created" on Athera like the royal lines were.

I think the clan lines were picked from the arriving humans that genetically could withstand paravian presence (albeit at high risk to health and sanity).

Why this should be the case is interesting...did they orinally come from particular planets that had a higher than normal frequency?

We know most town-born humans on Athera in the 3rd age don't have the ability to see the damage they might the F7 stand guard to limit damage to both cultures. I would be surprised if the Ath's adepts come from townborn...Kevor was the first new adept since when? Paravian departure? 100 years? I'm not's in PG. It's not clear how a human could find their way to becoming an adept?

I'm guessing (there have been hints) that they can be taught if they *ask* but no-ones asking...and they *cannot* ask the paravians directly and they don't trust the F7/adepts so the townborn seem a little "stuck". Not an ideal situation for any foot loose and fancy free fellowship members...

Maybe changes are happening slowly and after 20000 years humans would adapt to Athera?!?

Lysaer has no right to live on Athera ("cast out of the compact" as explained by Enithen Tuer in TK) - Where would he have to go I wonder? East Gate, North gate? Curiously the Centaur in PG seemed to be asking Lysaer to solve the curse by choosing death(?)

   By Roisin O'Connor on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 12:08 pm: Edit Post

Neilw: Then why did the Illiarthis *sp?* Paravian say to Lysaer that Jieret was 'as my brother' and show his braid to have exactly the same thread count and style as Jieret's?

   By Blue on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 03:36 pm: Edit Post

Roisin, I think that identical braid, plus the "brother" identification might have been a spiritual, rather than literal relationship. The Centaur was acknowledging Jieret's calling him forward in time as a "thought projection", something I don't think any other Caithdein was/is able to do. And their desire was the same, to prevent desecration of sacred ground, protecting Arithon, and with any luck, redemption of Lysaer from the Curse. Thus, a spiritual "brotherhood," and a tribute to Jieret, who was holding true to the pledge his ancestors made to the Paravians, even though this meant Jieret's physical death was near.

   By Andrew Ginever on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 05:34 pm: Edit Post

The identical braid may also have been real.

The five high kingdoms date back before Third Age 1. This means that kings and caithdeins would pre-date humanity's arrival.

It's possible that the centaur who was summoned was a past caithdein of Rathain, answering the need of a current caithdein via projection (and later the need of a current crown prince by actual physical presence).


   By Neilw on Wednesday, June 01, 2005 - 02:04 am: Edit Post


Blue answered more eloquantly using precise Janny-type phrases than I ever could :-)

I agree, for me, the Centaur was respecting the fact that Jieret was acting for the land and objecting to his mistreatment. Humans are still not permitted to be in the free wilds; Jieret as clan was the sole human not trespassing.


Did cathdeins exist before humanity? Would a cathdein be necessary in a "paravian kingdom system?" I have always felt that a cathdein is a support role / insurance / back up / temporary replacement.

The king sooner or later is going to go expire/retire due to significant paravian contact. (Being a king/queen was a originally a *rough job*). So the Cathdein may be necessary to counter any bad decisions in the event the king "goes crazy" and to cover in absence.

From FAQ "...stand as conscience for their king... and can stand in judgement of them... ". I don't feel a paravian system would have need of cathdeins. I could be wrong.

Just a remark on the irreplaceability of royal lines...the "contract" would have been made for all time...sort of outside our immediate limited human perception...but a paravian (and F7) would perhaps perceive the complete cannot create a royal line unless one creates a new contract and maybe the contract is considered revoked for that kingdom if ever the humans do not care for their royal line (free choice etc. etc.)

   By Andrew Ginever on Wednesday, June 01, 2005 - 07:59 pm: Edit Post

Hi Neil

Maybe I was wrong but I was under the impression that the role of caithdein was a Paravian tradition, just like the kingships themselves. (This could be one of Davien's "bones of contention" so to speak: humanity didn't really fit into Paravian society on an equal basis...)

Lets see if I can explain it a little.

I think that it started with the references in CotM to Paravians succeeding the end of other lines when Asandir gave Alithiel's history. (There seemed to be some kind of hierarchy for getting the throne and/or distinguishing "rank" between Paravians)

Being a king/queen seems to have been a rough job at any time in Atheran history (with Khadrim and Seardluin and meth spawn and other perils).

Human kings and queens may have had shorter tenures, but the basic reasons for a caithdein as shadow behind the throne would seem to be equally valid for Paravians (their kings and queens would have been bound by all the elements too, caithdeins bound to serve the land).

We don't even know for sure that the Paravian royal lines are all extinct.

I get a funny feeling sometimes, particularly when we see references to Teir's' for the current caithdein's lines (where they refer to a person who is the duly empowered caithdein of a kingdom, rather than their chosen heir to the caithdein's title, like Jeynsa): why would they be successors to power when they're currently empowered as caithdein? (in Arithon's case, as crown prince, it makes sense: he's successor to power for the high kingdom of Rathain). We don't know the origins of clanborn lastnames -- it's possible they were carry-overs from Paravian lines (not a physical merging of Paravians or humans if that's what you're thinking when you read this), where a human line, under the compact, inherited the rights, duties and obligations of a Paravian line from its Paravian holders. This could be interpreted as making all of the clans heirs and successors to particular Paravians (especially where Second Age Paravian towns were ceded for human occupancy under the rule of humans, e.g. Hanshire, Alestron, Jaelot....)

Janny's stated elsewhere that the Paravians were not bound in time as we'd perceive it. Don't know what impact this might have on the duration of royal lines, etc.

Lots of unanswered questions, and "maybe's" :-) I'm half-hoping that the promised appendix in US edition of TK might shed a little more light on some of this (At least then I might know if I'm dead wrong). One thing's sure: nothing in WOLAS is ever as black and white as we might try to reason it through.

   By neilw on Thursday, June 02, 2005 - 02:29 am: Edit Post

The "rough job" quote was a comment made by Janny and I took this to mean that even the strongest human kings had trouble withstanding paravian presence for a long time and that within a few years most kings would have to retire or go mad, etc...

I wonder whether Arithon has any advantages now that he is mage-trained + masterbard?

My reasoning for a paravian cathdein not being necessary being that the "rough job" referred to human kings regularly dealing with Paravians. I don't think a paravian king would have quite the same issues (i.e. he would have no problem with a paravian presence).

Would a Cathdein would be necessary at the "end" of a king where he needs to be backed up? Why a cathdein though? Why not a royal heir? Perhaps a family member could not easily act a "cathdein" since this might be a conflict of interest?

My "take" is that the cathdein is a safety net in the "human ruling" structure / in the mental or physical absence of the king. Was there always sufficient numbers of royal family adults to take on the role continuously if on average every 5 years(?) they needed a new king. Perhaps a cathdein could temporarily fill any gaps?

Do Paravians suffer any ill effects from human presence I wonder? Or is the only risk that of humans "smashing up" the environment?

   By Róisín on Thursday, June 02, 2005 - 11:17 am: Edit Post

Interesting reading - all the comments! Lots of food for thought.

I will for the moment cling to my fantasy about this Fantasy - that perhaps the inheritance - although initially spiritual - is now manifesting at the physical level allowing humans to evolve to be able to access the source themselves (as Arithon did with the Kralorvir).

I could be wrong. :-)

   By winter on Wednesday, July 05, 2006 - 12:18 am: Edit Post

I was thinking randomly about this today and decided to revive this thread. My thought was WHY can't new royal lines be created. I understand that it's a big responsibility for the Fellowship to interfere with people that way. And from the FAQ that the Paravians themselves chose the founders of the royal lines. So maybe the lack of handy Paravians is the reason new lines can be named and stamped with geas at the moment. However it's stressed time and again that the royal lines are IRREPLACEABLE. There doesn't seem to be any suggestion that it's a temporary problem but a final one. Why?

I suspect that the statement of irreplaceability as a fact without explanations suggests this is a spoiler of some sort. Or has implications not yet revealed in the storyline.

Janny, can you fill us in here?

   By Janny Wurts on Wednesday, July 05, 2006 - 08:43 pm: Edit Post

Winter -

You Asked.

There will be more about this in the due course of the story line.

Paravians are not present to choose, or ratify any candidate AND there was a promise made to them, and to the human ancestors that provided the first five lineages. Fellowship Sorcerers keep their word. The initial binding was not done lightly. There is much more in the weave than you realize regarding HOW this heritable influence was accomplished.

This is a maddeningly small sliver of view, perhaps - but - the rest will have to wait!