First thoughts after finishing SF

Janny Wurts Chat Area: Arc 3: Alliance of Light: Stormed Fortress: Spoiler Topics: First thoughts after finishing SF
   By Leonie on Saturday, October 27, 2007 - 11:02 pm: Edit Post

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Well, hopefully I've put enough space for spoilers here, as I'd hate to spoil anyone's read of this book.

I loved the book, loved the insights, loved the cover artwork and loved the revealed portions of plot that then revealed more loose ends!!!!!

The things that struck me most were the moments of poignant sorrow that flowed through the whole of this book. From the moment in Sanpashir where Arithon and Sulfin Evend encounter each other, and you can see the relationship they might have had, but is never realised; on through the moments where the flower of s'Taleyn lineage is bound over to the service of the crown of Rathain - fully aware under the auspices of the seeress of the cost; onto the loosing of the Mistwraith's curse by the Athlien Paravians,and the ever present injury and death that follow Arithon's loved ones. Feylind and Teive's deaths I found the most sorrowful (and caused a slightly leaky tearduct), and yet were completely in character and demonstrated the most fulfilled lives of all of Arithon's associates in this particular book. Even the recall of Arithon's spirit towards the end was tinged with sadness - the awareness that he would never know he had a daughter, and the awareness that both Glendien and Elaira sacrificed enormously to recall him to his body, and that he would never know any more than the fact of Elaira's love.

Things I loved -

The living dragon and her bargain with Davien. Can't wait to see how that will unfold over the next books - emotion impacting on the emotionless!!!

Lysaer finally battling the curse - and aware that he can battle.

Sulfin Evend - although I agonised every time he almost got it wrong.....

Sidir - such a great character, and so much depth.

The sadness of Fionn Areth's death which occurred while he was still undecided in his spirit - yet what a great reflection of how things really are. If we wait to ask for others opinions and never form our own, we risk travelling an unsure path forever.

The unfolding realtionships of the Fellowship of Seven.

Glendien - her growth and steadfastness masked under all that brashness.

And, at ths point, as I'm sure I'll have more to say on the topic - the amazement that I appear to be first to post and have completed my read!!!!

Great book Janny. Can't wait for the next. Thanks!


   By Leonie on Saturday, October 27, 2007 - 11:05 pm: Edit Post

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And my prediction of Davien and a dragon was correct!!! (Although the context was completely wrong......)


   By Kam on Sunday, October 28, 2007 - 08:31 am: Edit Post

spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler

I was kinda um, not disappointed, but it really threw me off to find out Davien's discorporation had been an "accident." Although certainly makes sense as to why he'd be so upset by it.

And yes, completely stunned by the 3-part snipet of dragon razing Avenor to the ground. Considering the huge consequence of an action that was only described in a 3 paragraph summary. I couldn't help but recall what Sethvir said about Etarra in CotM....

I love the part where Lysaer finally seems to break through and realises the depth of the grave he's dug for himself. The burning candle is such a perfect metaphor for him. At this stage, I am immensely curious about his salvation and Arithon's role behind it.

I've always wondered why Arithon prior, despite being so compassionate, didn't seem to feel pity for Lysaer. But it does my heart good to see that I was wrong.

Dragon is awesome. But why would she strike such a bargain with Davien? I'm not really sure what she gets out of it; learning what it is to be /not dragon/ o.O


   By Leonie on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 03:47 pm: Edit Post

Spoiler, spoiler

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I feel obliged to stick in large quantities of spoiler warnings as a few people have peeked before reading the book and are now regretting it......

I thought the whole section about the F7 disagreement was interesting, and changed a few of my thoughts regarding some of the individual sorcerers, particularly Asandir and Kharadmon.

I was certainly a little startled to find out that their disagreement had stirred up Shehaine Althain - the whole discussion must have been amazingly significant, and more far reaching than the surface value of the words said, particulalry in regard to some of the other conversations that we have observed taking place in the tower - and I think particularly of Lysaer and his removal from the compact.

I am wondering if this is because of the drake binding on the F7 and the way their future actions might impact Athera. Will have to reread.


   By Stephen John Yates on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 05:10 pm: Edit Post

Lots,

and lots,

and lots,

and lots,

and even lots,

of spoilers, read further at your peril.

Here are some initial thoughts having just finished the book.

I really loved this book, unlike so many other other authors Janny manages to develop both the characters and the storyline further with every book.

I loved the big changes in the storyline although I think more could have been made of Arithons redemption from the curse. Lysaer finally realising the truth was quite a biggy and it'll be interesting to see if he has the courage not to pursue Arithon further. (a distinct possibillity as he burned Fionn Areth's body as the Shadow Master.)

Many of the events were fairly predictable such as Fionn Areths death and Davien awakening a dragon. (the publishers gave away that one.) However there are still a lot of questions to be answered and many loose ends to be tied up. I particularily liked the additional information on the Koriathain, especially regarding Morriels long term plans and the orders old enemies. (Can they really afford Arithon as a foe as well as the Biedar.)

The real question now is which way the story will go next. Will the next arc focus on the Koriani or continue the war between Arithon and Lysaer. Arithon still has to meet the Riathan paravian from Dakar's vision. It will be interesting to find out what could provoke that reaction now the curse is gone.

Leonie, I think that Fionn Areth might have finally understood the loyalty of Arithons faction following his talk with Carrick. The only thing i'm not sure about is where the betrayal talked about in the birth prophecy came about. Unless that refers to the actions undertaken by Elaira and Glendien. An extremely interesting twist to the storyline. Given how quickly Janny can cover the passage of ten years or more, the childs story may be central to the next arcs. Personnally I hope that Arithon finds out about the child as I don't agree with the fellowship keeping her secret.

Now all I need to do is re-read it.


   By Leonie on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 02:24 am: Edit Post

Spoiler

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Spoiler and

then

a few more

Spoilers.....

I do agree that Fionn Areth was beginning to understand, but I'm not so sure his intellectual understanding had gelled into an inner comprehension - if you get what I mean!

I also enjoyed the increasing revelation of the Koriani machinations, and loved the Biedar involvement. I look forward to seeing more about this.

I also noticed that Arithon still hasn't met the Riathan Paravian - will it be arc four or five?? My appetite is whetted!


   By Stephen John Yates on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 03:45 pm: Edit Post

Guess what?

spoilers ahead.






I understand what you mean, but having just re-read the relevant pages I think that he did fully understand Arithon's character or else he would never have stood in the breach with Cattrick.

The quote on page 467 says:
"I saw Arithon's face, after bearing your word that Feylind's brig was pinned down with all hands aboard.' The truth written there had surpassed all deceit: that Rathain's prince had no shield against honest tears for the unalloyed sorrow of casualties."

Those two lines seem to say that Fionn Areth had finally understood that Arithon truly cared for his people.

I still haven't worked out where the betrayal from the birth prophecy comes in though.

I also found the detailed description of Daviens trial interesting. Did the ward of Shehane Althain awaken because he vehemently disagreed with Sethvir or because he left without permission?


   By Izzy on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 08:36 pm: Edit Post

SPOILERS

SPOILERS

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quote:

I also found the detailed description of Daviens trial interesting. Did the ward of Shehane Althain awaken because he vehemently disagreed with Sethvir or because he left without permission?




I read that as Sethvir screwed up. He set up a simple ward or something on the door to "prevent" (probably more just delay) Davien's leaving. However, because Sethvir was now the Warden, when Davien broke the ward, Shehane awoke because the "Warden" was "under attack" or some such thing.

I don't have the book in front of me, but I seem to recall some mention was made as to Sethvir being too new in his wardenship and not realising what was going to happen.

Regards,

CJ

PS As always, an awesome book Janny :-)


   By Yvonne on Saturday, November 03, 2007 - 08:01 am: Edit Post

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quote : Lysaer finally battling the curse and aware that he can battle.
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As I read it, while Alithiel was active, Lysaer was able to admit that he had KNOWN that he was cursed "since the failed coronation at Etarra". The problem was that the Mistwraith was so much in control of him that he did not have any option but to do those things that it suggested to him. I now feel that Lysaer is just being used - in much the same way that Selidie is using Lirenda. Neither of them have a choice, even though they may be able to see the moral objections, the "good and evil" of the uses to which they are being put. This is a major tragedy and a continuing theme in the books. One day, I hope the users will get their "comeupance"!
Once again, Janny, thankyou, can't say it enough.


   By Jo on Saturday, November 03, 2007 - 08:50 am: Edit Post

Spoiler

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Loved the book

I think that what Elaira, Glendian etc's did is pretty cruel. How will she be kept a secret because now I'm guessing Arithon will not have to accept kingship. What will they say to him oh by the way Arithon some relative of yours popped through the worldsend gate and hey she is now queen.


   By Jo on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 04:46 am: Edit Post

Just to note the relative bit will be hard to pull off as he was the last on his father's side.
Forgot to put that in on my previous post


   By Joy on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 08:03 am: Edit Post

Lost for words. Superlatives are used too often as part of everyday language and so I find I genuinely can't find words that sound powerful enough to convey my depth of feeling, my emotional response to SF, my love of the language and of the story (which feels like anything but fiction), and my awe and admiration for the gifts of the author.

Janny, I'm speechless. And I thank you most sincerely for making me so :-).


   By Brian Uri! on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 09:40 am: Edit Post

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I loved it! I will need to reread it again, more slowly, in a couple months, but I just couldn't hold back during the first read.

The King's Glade scene took me by surprise -- it reminded me of the Super Bowl episode of Alias in 2002 where JJ Abrams completely destroyed the root conflict in his story and reinvented it. Removing the curse from Arithon when we still have two Arcs to go was ballsy and proves that we have no idea where we're being nose-led by Janny :-)

Feylind's final scene was point-perfect, and showed just how much Arithon and Feylind had grown through the Arc.

The reappearance of Cattrick was abrupt -- not sure why Fionn Areth wouldn't have discovered him much earlier in his stay at Alestron. However, their scenes together were brilliant, as was their ending.

I still don't fully understand the Fellowship portions of the story -- those usually don't come to me until after multiple rereads of the scenes.

I would have liked to read more about Lysaer in the conclusion -- it seems like he was relegated to the triplets between chapters. On the other hand, I don't know how much more we could learn after his earlier talk with Sulfin Evend.

Overall, five thumbs up! I've posted a review on amazon.co.uk, and I hope everyone else does too -- the more word of mouth we can get out the better!


   By starstorm on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 10:43 pm: Edit Post

Janny, not really anything to add to the wonderful things that have been said; Leonie detailed too many of my feelings perfectly already! But I just want to add my sincere thanks for delivering yet another book that was SO VERY MUCH worth waiting for! I actually finished reading it yesterday evening, but I'm finding myself going back and reading passages again just to wrap my brain around such a huge amount of wonderfulness in this package :-)


Oh, one comment on the comments above...

SPOILERS
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Stephen, you were wondering above about where the betrayal mentioned in Fionn's birth prophecy comes in. At first, I was thinking it referred to Parrien's actions (forced by Morriel, of course), but after thinking about it, I'm leaning more toward what Arithon would no-doubt see as the greatest betrayal of his person; the decision of the Fellowship and Biedar to keep the existence of his child from him.

~Anna


   By Walt on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 02:22 pm: Edit Post

Oh, sweet mistress of my library shelf. No words are able to encompass my thanks for such a superlative work. I had to laugh: I was reading so intently yesterday at lunch that I didn't pay attention to much else (like my phone ringing, etc). As my lunch hour came to an end, I looked down and discovered that some time during my reading, I had kicked off my shoes! Your prophecy came true! It really did blow my shoes off! hehehe

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Most Poignant moment: The destruction of the Evenstar and Arithon's depairate seach for Feylind. Here's this guy on the morning train sobbing his eyes out while reading.

Most Atavistic moment: Cirle of the Sunchildren. Unbelievably wonderful. By my count, Arithon's met and conversed with a Centaur and now a Sunchild. Next up: Unicorns!

Most Foreshadowed: When one of the Fof7 comments that the Koriani meddling has awakened the sleeping might of the Beidar. I had goose bumps for hours.

Most righteous-high-five-outta-da-park moment: Arithon and Elairia -ehem- Grokking more fully... ;^) It's about time!!!

Most courageous: Elairia finding the mettle and strength to find a trap-free way to bring Arithon back and at the same time ensure that the s'Brydion line will continue in Glendien's child.

Most feel-good: Dakar willfully taking up his apprentiship duties from Asander.


   By Trys on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 03:00 pm: Edit Post

SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER

Walt,

You meant 'ensure that the s'Ffallen line will continue...', yes?

Trys


   By Walt on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 03:07 pm: Edit Post

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D'oh! Yes... my mind is off on a vacation I guess... I don't know HOW I typed in s'Brydion and not s'Ffallen! Yoiks! There goes my credibility!


   By Hunter on Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 08:08 pm: Edit Post

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Read beyond at ye peril..

You might have been forgiven for typing s'Talyen as that is who Glendien married.. but s'Brydion? Eek..

On the other hand, Erlien seems to have mistresses running out of his ears and, for equality's sake, no reason why Glendien couldn't have a clutch of partners as well. Free will seems to be key point here. Makes the clan enclave sound like a bunch of 60s hippy, free-love in a commune.. :-):-) Or is a Erlien a Mormon?

Take for a moment the chance to reflect on this - Dakar *willingly* resumed his lapsed study under Asandir. For someone who spent four books trying to avoid Asandir, the lessons doled out to Dakar in Arithon's company have perhaps been more far reaching than anything Asandir could have done. I do recall a comment that teaching bedrock would be easier than Dakar the scatterbrain.

Poor old Arithon, for his troubles he got assigned Dakar as his protector. Dakar couldn't control him. Then Davien assumed the role of Arithon's protector - a seemingly more dubious option than the first! Davien would similarly seem unable to control Arithon.

Exactly what Davien plans to do with his 'tame' dragon is a good question after they knit the grimwards back together. I would have thought excising them all from the face of Athera might be a good idea.

Have we seen the last of Davien's eagle now he's enfleshed?


   By Walt on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 09:48 am: Edit Post

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Well, unless you are an apostate and live in the wilds of Southern Utah or Northern Arizona, we Mormons (LDS) haven't had plural wives in close to a hundred years. On the other hand, some of those splinter groups that make the news sound every bit as rowdy as Erlien's encampments!

As for forgiveness, I blame my sleeplessness on our resident siren of prose! She is just sooooo gosh darn good, who would willingly want to put down the blessed book! I was fast caught as an unshielded initiate to Ath's mysteries beholding the grand Chord of Creation...

This morning's brain-mush however is due to my dropped guild duties in WoW and my 1:30 am dungeon raid. *sigh* When will I learn that I'm not 25 any more???

Have we seen the last of Davien's eagle? I would venture to guess no. The dragon will eventually go away and his eagle form seems a vast improvement over lane transfer for getting around.

In all of this, no one has mentioned the potential saving grace the dragon poses for Traithe! If she can fully enflesh Davien for a foolish mistake, why not restore Thraithe for his courageous act in closing the South Gate? (South gate, right?)


   By Trys on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 11:34 am: Edit Post

Walt,


quote:

When will I learn that I'm not 25 any more???


When you start saying 'When will I learn that I'm not 35 any more?'

As to the eagle... if Davien is fully re-enfleshed and no longer has direct access to the dragon's magic, he may not be able to change forms.

As to Traithe, in order for the dragon to reontergrate Traithe she would first have to retrieve his missing parts which are currently mewed up with Desh-thiere in Rockfell Pit. The Paravians left rather than deal with the wraiths... what would a dragon's decision be?

Trys


   By Brad on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 12:13 am: Edit Post

Spoiler





On Wednesday when I read the scene with the glowing eye in Davien's lair I was like pretty excited to see that my thought that he had indeed wrangled himself a drake to do all the stuff in PG and TK turned out correct.

The 3 snippets labeled Dragon literally had me jumping around the house yelling Oh My God, OMG, OMG several times over. I mean, I was pretty pumped when it was obvious that Arithon would summon Paravians (and rightly guess it would be sunchildren since we haven't seen them yet) and the curse would be lifted but not like Dragon. I mean, Avenor got WTFPWNED! I certainly didn't expect to see something of that magnitude.


   By Technetus on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 08:23 am: Edit Post

I took time out from exam preparation to cover-to-cover SF twice in as many days (8 hours per pass, roughly). I'll return for discussion once exams are over, and I have time to post a more in-depth response than simply "Yikes!"


   By Diann Coonfield on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 09:26 pm: Edit Post

Stephen and Starstorm

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To me the most significant betrayal is Jeynsa's betrayal. Morriel discussed this P 82 "Arithon Teir'sFfalen and no one else possessed the right to prosecute Jeynsa's betrayal." This betrayal led to Arithon asking for help in the King's Grove and getting rid of the Mistwraith's geas completely. This betrayal also forced him to go to Alestron where he used Alithiel and influenced Lysaer to realize that he (Lysaer) was cursed. If Arithon had not done these things, the final part of Fionn Areth's birth prophecy would be more likely (ie living to old age with Mistwraith winning and dooming the return of the Paravians).


   By skeoke on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 09:15 am: Edit Post

Spoiler Spoiler Spoiler
Question Question Question

Fantastic book! You were right (of course) every line is a spoiler, and too much to give away too soon.

Things that struck me right off:

Davien's tenderness toward Arithon after one of Arithon's stripping encounters with the mysteries. Arithon never did get much chance to recover from backlash before jumping into the thick of it again.

The betrayal of Cattrick's crew! That won't be forgiven! Not enough nasty things to say...

Kyrialt!!!!! (good luck, Sethvir!)

Once Mearn left, I thought the other brothers would be dead before the end of the book. I think Bransian would have preferred that.

How will Elaira be able to keep a secret from Arithon?? Is Dakar leaving because he knows he won't be able to keep the secret? Or does straight guilt make Asandir's company preferable?

Faithan always gets the best men.

'Kay, real question: How can Davien make a bargain with a dragon? What could Davien possibly offer? Is Davien assisting at all with the 'settling' of the grimwards?

That's all for now, this'll take a couple of rereads...


   By Winter on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 09:59 pm: Edit Post

Spoiler Spoiler Spoiler

Just finished and had a thought. The Paravian wards in Alestron's walls are what kept the Koriani fertility trap from springing, yes? So why wouldn't the group make for the nearest Paravian fortress (Ithamon maybe? or Old Tirans?) so Elaira could do the necessary thing conscience free?

I need to re-read the appendix but I got the impression that the royal geas had a finite amount. The more royals there were, the less geas to go around. When Arithon's daughter is born (or perhaps at the moment of conception) she would have some part of the s'Ffalenn geas, reducing the amount Arithon has. I wonder if he'll notice that.

Somebody asked what Arithon might do next. I would venture to suggest that the next arc deals with the Koriani. This arc ends with Elaira intending to go back and Arithon's been saying they need to deal with the Order throughout the book. And then the next book deals with the contained Mistwraith and the free wraiths coming from Marak. The return of the Paravians and must be coming at some point as well, and perhaps even the introduction of a s'Ahelas from Dascen Elur to take up Shand's crown and a s'Illessid for Tysan that doesn't have the complication of 2 royal gifts.


   By Andy on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 11:09 am: Edit Post

SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER

How will Elaira be able to keep a secret from Arithon?? Is Dakar leaving because he knows he won't be able to keep the secret? Or does straight guilt make Asandir's company preferable?

I wondered about this myself. In light of the Arithon's and Elaira's incredible relationship, which is based on unconditional love and trusting and honest vulnerability, I don't think she is going to be able to keep it from Arithon, nor should she. As for Dakar, I think you are right that he left because he couldn't stay and maintain the lie. Also, the need for him to protect the crowned prince of Rathain is over, because Arithon can easily protect himself, now that he has in initiate mastery back, plus being released from the curse.

Is Davien assisting at all with the 'settling' of the grimwards?

IIRC, Davien said something to that effect, that after the dragon got done sunning herself or something like that, they were off to the two other grimwards to settle/patch them up.


   By Julie on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 05:18 pm: Edit Post

Good read. I was right about Sulfin Evand and Arithon!! Glendian volunteered her body so Elaira would not get pregnant.But I did not see an assumption that Glendian would get pregnant. The Beidar and Sethvir's presence was not detected by Elaira. Also Asandir implied that Glendian had the choice to bear this child- so her birth was not a forgone conclusion by anyone at Athir. It will be interesting to learn where and how Glendian raises this child.
Thank you Janny for allowing Lysaer to grow and reclaim some of his humanity. I was hoping that 450 years left to the brothers was not going to be all blood shed. It will take generations to rebuild Athera and Lysaer's innate sense of justice should be allowed to help in the healing.


   By Maria Åborg on Monday, November 19, 2007 - 01:10 pm: Edit Post

SPOOOOOOOIIIIILER



I have now read the book 1½ times and am still digesting. I feel rather like a snake that has taken on prey that is slightly too big.

Just a few thoughts:

I feel so relieved that Sethvir has had the load taken off his back!
I don´t believe that Arithon will stay ignorant of his daughter. As I see it nobody else will tell him, but can you imagine a s´Falenn daughter who will not seek her father out as soon as she´s old enough?
For the rest, this book contains so many momentous events that I´m surprised and awed that Janny has crammed them all into one book, even of this brick-size.

Maria


   By Meredith Lee Gray on Monday, November 19, 2007 - 05:02 pm: Edit Post

SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER

It looks as though Elaira chose to remain blissfully ignorant of any conception on Glendien's part--so that her relationship with Arithon wouldn't be tainted with deception. And Asandir commented that it was unlikely she would have chance to find out about the baby (and that if she tried, Sethvir would probably try to side-track her).

So Elaira doesn't know, and Dakar chose to quit Arithon's company (the tension between those two is puzzling and sad to me... I guess I missed the import there). Parrien has gone. That just leaves Talvish. And it's doubtful he knows the truth of the matter, the child, but I could be wrong...

And the impression that I got from Asandir/Glendien/the Biedar was that they intended for the girl to grow on her own path ("find her way without the concern of her father's aware interference"), but that she "shall come to spare her father, one day dispossessed of his knowledge of her paternity."

I reread some of the pertinent parts and I don't seem to read any line suggesting that she won't know who her father is. But that Arithon won't... at least until the timing is right, after she's grown. But it seems like it would be easier to not tell the girl that Arithon s'Ffalenn is her father, because if YOU knew that was your papa, wouldn't you be driven by sheer curiosity to make contact?

Man, I wish we knew her name. I wish Janny had slipped it into the last triplet. Now we have to wait a good year and a half at least to be able to call her anything other than "the child"? Maybe we can beg and plead that she share the name in a few months, once most people have read the book, since it wouldn't be spoiling much...

Oh, and speaking of the last triplet. At first I assumed the child being born was Arithon's daughter. But the timing isn't right. Because the Concatenation chapter occurred in Winter (not even EARLY Winter like some of the earlier chapters were), and the last triplet with the cutting of the birth-cord of the "infant successor" is supposedly in Spring. So at MOST that would be six months. Granted I have never carried or birthed a child myself, but isn't normal gestation 9 months? And I was confused as to why/how Glendien was suddenly in Sanpashir. ;-) So my conclusion is that the child is the Biedar Eldest's successor, to "watch over" Arithon in his coming trials. Maybe this was obvious to everyone else but me, IDK. I had to read it a few times to understand what was going on.

Mer


   By Maria Åborg on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 11:07 am: Edit Post

Mer, do you mean that you understand what´s going on after only a few readings? I certainly don´t! ;)

Maria


   By Meredith Lee Gray on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 01:17 pm: Edit Post

After only one reading!

I admit it. I read the few spoilers that were posted before I got my copy. So I knew who lived, who died, and essentially what all transpired. So I didn't feel the crushing need to rip through the book at a frenzied pace like I normally do! So I read it pretty slowly, and feel like I have a much better understanding of what happened in this book then when I normally do after a first read through of one of Janny's books.

And now you know my secret shame. :-D


   By DarthJazy on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 02:34 pm: Edit Post

Dont feel bad Meredith since I can afford to get the book from the UK at the much higher price I have been reading all the spoilers just to appease my desire to know what the hell is going on. I troll this forum like noones buissness on a daily basis.


   By hosanna on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 02:55 am: Edit Post

Ok have finished reading Stormed Fortress ... impressions .... SPOILERS

Lots of great wow moments. Arithon going to the grove !!!! Lysaer granted reprieve by Alithiel. Sulfin Evend meeting Arithon and feeling the guilt for his treatment of Jeiret. Sidir not trusting Elaira and allowing himself to be captured and branded! Arithon and Elaira making love with Alithiel's song and light surrounding them - so beautiful! Sethvir being reclaimed from the brink of death (beyond the brink to my reading). Davien in the eye of the dragon! Arithon unable to help himself using shadow to defend Feylind! Lirenda denied salvation again! Asandir using Davien's experience to quiet the grimward. Dakar taking up his study willingly. Fionn Areth dying a heroic soldier as he might have wished. Jeynsa dealing with Bransian. Lysaer's wipeout of the outer holdings. Parrien being used by Morriel/Selidie. Parrien attacking Arithon. Kyrialt's death! Elaira's honesty with Sulfin Evend. The Fellowhsip flag flying above the citadel. The Biedar influence on the retrieval of Arithon. And Glendien getting pregnant!!!
Shock and Awe each one!

Further thoughts ... I don't think it was really explained why there was no other way to rescue Arithon at the end. I am still coming to terms with someone other than Elaira bearing his child and all the secrecy. To quote an Aussie advertisement "not happy Jan(ny)". Arithon's reaction when he finds out had better be good!
Was a tad disappointed Davien didn't turn out to be right about the rebellion in some way. There is so much complex stuff in there even several readings wouldn't suffice. I'd love to be walked through it step by step.
In this book there seemed a lot 'left out'. The battle for Alestron really happened off-page a lot as opposed to atop the walls. The main characters were otherwise engaged with healing etc. After descriptions of Alestron in prior books I was expecting the breaching of the glass-studded walls to be a bigger feature.
So many significant happenings I felt this could have been two books.
One thread I felt was not fully explored was how Jeynsa initially took off to investigate Arithon based on her vision of him being involved with necromancers. Once she got to Alestron she heard that he had actually been acting for the Fellowship and saved a lot worse from happening. She then changed tacks and focused on his having let down his allies - what else could she do, she had arrived there at the scene of the seige, her pride and youth would not allow acknowledgment of her grave error. Stubbornness made her stay on. But I fully expected Arithon to call her on this, to 'see her heart' and help her learn through the moment by being tough and forcing her honesty as a substitute father for Jeiret.
Didn't understand about the dragon. What did she get out of the deal? The fellowship has their straits eased with the grimwards. Davien gets flesh, Avenor prevented from becoming another grimward.

At risk of offending ... you know in Stephen King's Misery when the kidnapper explains how the author "cheated" by reversing something that readers see as having 'happened'. Janny had me all backwards and forwards a number of times.
I really thought Sethvir was dead. Then I was certain. Then I was convinced. Then he came back! This has happened other times with other characters even Arithon. It is the intensity of the drama and the words used to convey that intensity. everything is at the extreme of endurance, then beyond endurance, then past salvation then somehow it all comes good.
I feel I've been cranked through an old-fashioned washing mangle.

That said, can't wait for the next one.


   By George on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 02:05 am: Edit Post

I agree with Hosanna....i think I have to re-read this book at least 2 times.

I am absolutely amazed at how Janny has developed as a writer. As a piece of writing it is very well constructed and expertly written. The grammar is amazing! The sentence structure and description is enough to make any English professors jump for joy!

However, some of the dialogue I had a little trouble following! (HA! and I'm a lawyer!) I don't know about you, but at some parts of the book I was thinking...this guy is an ex-goat herder...would a goat herder actually talk like that???? Some of the dialogue amongst the "less educated" seemed a little too high brow and maybe a little contrived...having said that, maybe Athera really is just an amazing place! ;)


   By Meredith Lee Gray on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 02:11 am: Edit Post

I don't recall any of the characters in the book, princes, servants, soldiers, sorcerers, to really have any casual, slang-ish speech patterns. So it's been pretty consistently formal speech throughout her writings.

Fionn Areth has used some base curses and turns of phrase a couple times though, that kind of indicated his rougher, "country" upbringing.

I think I remember one of Janny's characters saying "Hey!" once and I thought Hey! They say 'hey' on Athera!

But, don't feel bad George. I OFTEN have to re-read someone's dialogue two or three times to get the full meaning. Especially the sorcerer's. Especially when someone is making a joke and I don't get it, so I read their dialogue over and over and finally give up. Only to realize that Janny hasn't given us the punch line until a couple lines later! Then I'm just glad I wasn't a complete dunce who just didn't get the joke!

Mer


   By Julie on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 12:56 pm: Edit Post

Our ability to communicate verbally has devolved over the several generations that mass media has evolved. If everyone on Athera could send and recive images as the F7 can there would be no need for descriptive language. All levels of Athera's society need to use verbal language. It just sounds high brow to our "newspeak", text messaging, 30 second advertising, youtube ears.


   By Matthew on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 10:32 am: Edit Post

Not sure i totally agree with that. I doubt back before world war 1 anyone talked like they were attending a formal banquet.


   By Matthew on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 10:37 am: Edit Post

commonfolk i mean, you have to remember tho that Fionn Areth isnt typical of country folk.


   By Trys on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 11:42 am: Edit Post

Matthew,

Try reading letters written to home by common soldiers during the American Civil War. These letters are not only well crafted in terms of sentence structure and grammar but quite often wax poetic.

Just to explain a little about who served as a common soldier in that war - well to do (and so likely better educated - i.e., college educated) men who received their draft notice (in the North anyway) would often hire someone to serve in their place.

There's no doubt in my mind that our (I can only speak for Americans) level of literacy and literateness has dropped dramatical in the last 150 years.

Trys


   By Matthew on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 12:44 pm: Edit Post

That bears thinking about, i'll have to find a source for some of those letters.

It's easy to fall into the trap of thinking every generation that came before us was less educated i guess =/, though some people would say that we're dropping form and politeness/goodmanners in favour of being efficient and to the point.

e.g old style 'my heart yearns to be home in your arms again' = modern 'cnt w8 2 bng u sily'


   By Meredith Lee Gray on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 02:11 pm: Edit Post

Ugh Matthew. Please don't even joke with netspeak shorthand. Makes my skin crawl! ;-)

My text messages and e-mails are always as grammatically correct and punctuated as anyhwere else. It may take me a few seconds longer to type "to" instead of "2". But I have NEVER in my life typed "b4" or "w8" or anything remotely similar. OK, sometimes I type "b/c".

I always associate those cutesy short-hands with pre-teen girls. (Of course, then I get texts from my mother or grandmother with them, and my world crumbles.)

Mer


   By Lyssabits on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 02:35 pm: Edit Post

Maybe what's the case is that the overall, average level of literacy has gone up -- more of the population is literate, but that the average literacy of each individual has gone down. This sort of makes sense to me, since those who were taught to read and write were probably those who had a more "classical" education than you get in public schools these days.

The problem with relying on the letters as proof is that those are clearly only going to reflect the population of people who *could* write. (The US Census has the same problem now estimating the actual literacy rate) Those who were completely illiterate would either not send any letters, or would have to find a friend who could, and then you might get some distortion if the letter wasn't written down verbatim, but rather was left to the interpretation of the person doing the writing. I'm sure there were poor people who got a very good education for whatever reason.. but I also suspect that a lot of people could only read and write their own names.

Perhaps it's because you probably wouldn't have been given as broad an education as you are now unless you were wealthy. Everyone would need to learn to read and write, so that might have been taught with extra attention to detail, but I think people were still mostly learning tradeskills at that point. You didn't need to know chemistry if you were a wheelwright.


   By Matthew on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 05:27 am: Edit Post

Ok, what does everyone think about the sentence 'For passing years that extended to centuries, the men in the crab skiffs that trapped in the estuary, and the caravans bound down the trade-road attested to the fact that the cloth never frayed in the grip of the elements.'

This seems to imply that the Paravians wont be returning for hundreds of years, or this is a redherring and that the new owners of the keep just keep the pennant in place.

As we have seen recently the Paravians have been able to appear in person on several occasions, implying that their absence is entirely by their own choice. I'm beginning to think that the Paravians will never return :-)


   By Trys on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 07:51 am: Edit Post

SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER

I don't think the return of the Paravians will necessitate the reoccupation of Alestron by permanent residents... human or otherwise. It is possible that the citadel could remain sealed well beyond the end of the Wars of Light and Shadow.


   By Meredith Lee Gray on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 01:42 pm: Edit Post

SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER

It could indicate that the Paravians won't return soon. Or, as someone speculated previously, it could just mean that they have better things to do. Or the Paravians did return, but decided it would be best to keep it under seal.

Mer


   By Susan C on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 10:32 pm: Edit Post

Janny,
I admit I just finished my first reading. You are brilliant. This book is superb-it moved me beyond words. This book was filled with so many OMG momemts. I am now reading it again. Thank-you, Thank-you, Thank-you.
Susan


   By Clansman on Tuesday, January 08, 2008 - 10:00 am: Edit Post

Finally, I can post here. I finished last weekend. Took me over two months of stealing an hour here and there, but I finished. I have decided that my life is too busy if I can't make time to read a book this good in a couple of weeks. What a treat! Janny, you undersold this book with your pre-realease comments. Unlike other authors, your work grows, instead of re-hashing the same old characters and events. It changes, and the tapestry grows more rich and real with each addition.

I stand in awe of your amazing vision, and incredible talent. You are truly blessed with ample quantities of both.

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What strikes me most about this book, aside from its sheer amazing brilliance, is the redemption that we saw. Arithon is totally redeemed from Desh-Thiere. Lysaer is partially redeemed to where Arithon was (I think) way back at the end of CotMW. Arithon and Elaira were redeemed as a couple so that they could express their love to each other. Fionn Areth was redeemed at the end of his life with a bit of understanding (the poor sod). The s'Brydions were redeemed, albeit not in the way that they wanted, but rather as Arithon asked them to be back in TK. Sethvir, Asandir and Davien were redeemed. So was Isfarenn (sp?).

Even the irredeemable Dakar was redeemed. He has grown up an awful lot since being tied to Arithon in SoM.

To me, the major theme of the book was redemption/salvation, all of which stemmed from GRACE. Grace cannot taken or earned. It is simply given, when one humbles oneself enough to ask.

It is probably easier for me to pick out what I didn't like rather than what I did like, because the former list is so very short, and the latter so bloody long! Also, what I didn't like is more like a list of impatience, with those parts of my curiosity that were not satisfied.

For instance, the sales pitch of the publisher was that the Koriathain plot would be fully revealed. I didn't really see much new there, but more fleshed out. No real surprises, as the Twisted Sisters simply showed how ruthlessly twisted they have become. Morriel/Selidie is simply gettting more and more insane. So I found this aspect slightly disappointing, but that is not Janny's fault.

Also, what was the deal between Davien and Seshkro-whatever-the-rest-of-her-name-was-schiel (sorry, don't have the book with me to spell it right, let alone pronounce it!). Yes, he got his body back, but what was she getting? An education on what is "not dragon"? Needs more detail, which I just know is forthcoming in the next Arc.

The rousing of the Beidar was really neat. I wonder what the source of enmity is between them and the Koriathain, besides the obvious evil-minded corruption of the latter. The Koraithain seem to have been much more benevolent in the past. Their current means seem a far cry from their ways back in The Sundering Star. Also, there did not appear to be that kind of enmity back then, as there is now. Again, this is likely to be explained in the next Arc.

So, my complaints, if they could be called that, are simply impatience. I want more, and SF was so beautifully packed with wonderful things, I can't really complain about anything.

I must go back to FP and come back with my thoughts on Fionn Areth's demise. Wasn't Elaira to make some kind of choice? I'll be back...


   By Susan C on Tuesday, January 08, 2008 - 11:11 am: Edit Post

*****S P O I L E R S*******

*****S P O I L E R S*******

*****S P O I L E R S*******

*****S P O I L E R S*******

*****S P O I L E R S*******

Clansman: After reading SF twice, I went back and read Sundering Star again. The Beidar were just one clan among a larger tribe on the planet. After, the Koriani -Jessian- witnessed the saving of the planet Scathic and after the Beidar vouched safed her, the Beidar clan was given the task of insuring any knowledge the Koriani gained from the people would not be used wrongly and to make things right. Thus, I assume that the majority of the tribe of which the Beidar belonged did not come to Athera and the Beidar are only there because of the Koriani. Also, in SF it is stated that it was knowledge originally obtained by the Koriani and twisted by others that lead to the use of possession through necromancy.

The tribes people of Scathic had use of magic, but I wonder because of the special properties on Athera if the Beidar are even more powerful than they were on Scathic.


   By Julie on Tuesday, January 08, 2008 - 12:40 pm: Edit Post

I thought the same after reading Sundering Star. The Beidar magic is very powerful, but I think they have not reigned in the Koriathain or necromancers because their task on Athera is to see a prophecy fullfilled. Namely Mother Night's son - Arithon. Its interesting that so many of Ath's Adepts are desert people. Were Ath's ADepts originally an offshoot from the Beidar who originally found refuge on Athera?


   By Clansman on Tuesday, January 08, 2008 - 05:26 pm: Edit Post

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It seems to me that the Koriani have fallen far from the benevolent organization that they appeared to be in Sundering Star. In that story, they were trying to save a unique element of human society that was threatened with annihilation. Now, Morriel/Selidie doesn't care who she kills to get humanity back to the stars.

Why? Humanity on Athera has proved that the self-same idiocy that led to interstellar warfare and obliteration (and created the Mistwraith???), has continued on Athera. The Koriani have even abetted this behaviour (see Parrien and his crew).

I assume that the rest of the tribe is still on Scathic? Are there little pockets of humanity scattered throughout the stars, or were they all wiped out? From reading Sundering Star, it would appear to me to be difficult to get rid of all of humanity. Mind you, the F7 were away from humanity for a long time before the refugees sought sanctuary on Athera.

The Dragon to me is the most intriguing development. Why not get rid of the other grimwards, unless getting rid of Scarpdale was done at a massive risk? It would appear to be in keeping with what the Dragons demanded of the F7. Why not get rid of the Khadrim in the Sorcerer's Preserve? and the Meth-monsters. Perhaps it is precisely the cooperation between Sheshkroschiel (sp?) and the F7 that will allow the sorcerer's to complete their work?

My question is, where did Sheshkroschiel come from?

Arc IV is going to be even more mind-blowing than SF. I just know it.


   By Hunter on Wednesday, January 09, 2008 - 12:46 am: Edit Post

SPOILERS..

But, Clansman, the key question is just WHY the Koriathain had interest in the Biedar. I very much doubt it had anything to do with saving a few poor lost souls.. if the Biedar were a tribe of cannibals with no saving graces or magic, I doubt the Koriathain would have cared and would have let them perish.. after all, many millions of others perished with the benefit of a Koriani salvation. The great irony of course is that the Biedar didn't need any saving by anyone, let alone the meddling Koriani.

My understanding was that Davien and his "pet" were going off to settle the other grimwards to ease those stressed from Sethvir. The Scarpdale grimward was first to salvage because Asandir was in it and he was perhaps worthy of saving!


   By Brian Uri! on Wednesday, January 09, 2008 - 09:08 am: Edit Post

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I guess the bargain between Seshkrozchiel and Davien is never explicitly spelled out. Here's what I can see having come out of it based on SF:

- Davien regains a corporate status and can use Seshy's powers (obviously "for Davien")

- The destruction of the dragon skulls in Avenor (obviously "for Seshy")

- Seshy and Davien settle the grimwards (at first I interpreted this as "for Davien" too, but then realized it goes both ways -- maybe Seshy wanted to settle these, but for some reason, could not do it without Davien's alien perspective? Davien could have slyly bargained this in an "only if you insist" kind of way, while secretly realizing it would help the Fellowship)

- Seshy gets to experience Davien's perspective ("for Seshy", but for unexplained reasons)

Anything else?


   By Clansman on Wednesday, January 09, 2008 - 09:49 am: Edit Post

SPOILERS!

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SPOILERS!

SPOILERS!

SPOILERS!

SPOILERS!

Hunter:

The impression that I got from Sundering Star was that the Koriathain were more focussed on the humanitarian aid and preservation end than direct intervention with politics and the like. They also appeared to be a very secret society, so secret that no one but their members knew about them. Jessian was something of a "sleeper", having an completely separate identity from the sisters we see on Athera.

This is just an impression. However, we have all seen how organizations change over the course of history. For example, the Christian church of the 2nd century, which was focussed on spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ hand-in-hand with supporting those in need (one of the reasons that it expanded so quickly was that so many were in need, and were attracted thereby) bore no resemblance to the all-powerful medieval/early renaissance pre-Reformation Church, the latter of which used fear, torture, extortion, deceit, warfare, ______ (insert your evil of choice here), etc. The early church leaders would have been horrified at what their church became. Cue Martin Luther.

This is what I am guessing happened to the Koriathain. As they became more powerful (like the Church) the lure of misusing that power overcame them, and they were corrupted. As Sulfin Evend said, Morriel/Selidie is a "blood-sucking witch". Were all of her predecessors that way? Probably not, as very few humans set out to found an evil organization. They always tend to believe that they "have God on their side", whether they do or not.

You are absolutely correct to ask why the Koriathain had an interest in the Biedar. The answer to that is undoubtedly forthcoming. Cue Janny.

Obviously Scarpdale had to come first. My question is, will the other grimwards be patched up, or, using the word you and Brian use, "settled", like Scarpdale. I assume that anyone could simply take a stroll through Scarpdale now without being immolated by dead dragon dreams, or any other ill-natured supernatural effects. Of course, in reading Janny's books, we have all learned to ASSUME NOTHING!!!

Brian Uri!:

"Seshy"??? It is easier to type, but surely beneath her majesty.

The points you raise appear to be part of the "deal", but there must be more than that. Davien must pay some sort of significant price, mustn't he?

Could Karadhmon and Luhaine similarly regain corporeal existence? Is this part of the F7 becoming whole again?


   By DarthJazy on Wednesday, January 09, 2008 - 10:43 am: Edit Post

I think clansman just nailed it to the T. The prophecy says the F7 will bewhole again. We are assuming that they remain a fellowship and that remains to be seen but either way the obvious gaureentee is that the F7 could not be 7 members again if 2 of them are discorporat or DED.

Side note, shouldnt the Korthys only be pure evil 7 days a month? If so and Moriel is even 24/7 was species is she hehe. I know must be a group of Hermafidites from the nether regions of the abyss


   By Hunter on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 01:27 am: Edit Post

Clansman - the relevant passages are found on 242 and 243 of Under Cover of Darkness.

Sentences such as
- Don't fall for appearances. No one's launching this rescue for the humanitarian spin.
- The stake's raw intelligence? On both sides?
- Esoteric knowledge... Magic. These tribesfolk possess the ability to evoke the paranormal

The Fellowship sided with the underdogs, not PanTac. The Koriathain had sided with one of the large federations (PanTac, WorldFleet or similar) - Morriel has said that the Koriani stood at the right hand of humanity as Calum Kincaid's weapon destroyed humanity. So I suspect the Korithain came out of hiding, as such, during the subsequent war.

Organizations change over the course of history as tools to serve the masters that preside over them and are used to meet their goals. Whatever their origins and professed callings.

Scarpdale has been returned to what it was prior to it hosting, however involuntarily, the remains of an angry drake. Davien was going to resolve those unstable grimwards so that Sethvir could finally rest. Whether all grimwards are so settled is another question altogether.


   By DarthJazy on Wednesday, February 06, 2008 - 05:52 pm: Edit Post

SPOILER!!!!!!!
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Yay I'm finally done.

Ok here we go. First Off I loved it thank you Janny. Surprises for me were sulfin and arithon not killing each other esp when he caught arithon on the boat. Arithon getting rid of his curse in that way at kings glade. Kyliart his liegeman dieing to stopping parrion from killing Arithon that was a major betrayal. I dont get how Dakar betrayed arithon. He followed order to make sure the prince lived and Arithon always knew he would do that. Perhaps someone can shed some light. Also loved how parrien was used to bring the duke to heal.

Another question I have is what is ment from bieadar when Elaira remade their origonal cipher with out the forced mastery. It seems by doing so she became somethign signifgant, am i right she may be the first koriani to use the orders powers within the LoMB? which also brings up the question of why isn't the fellowship doing something to free seldie of morriels evil possesion of her body? Good to know the Koriani also stole all the power from the beider.

I don't get how they burned the goatherds body as the spinner of darkness when both sulvin and Lysaer said since the priest are all men of talent they know its not really him. I was under the assumption they couldn't use this ruse to end the war and then turn around and find out that they did. Acording to asandir Lysaer will no longer be allowed to pretend his ruling of tyson does this mean the fellowship have plans to go deal with lysaer once and for all or that lysaer is going on the run from the F7?

It seems to me that the book also showed that Lysaer was not in control of his own decisions when he allowed for the clans to be enslaved that he admits he was unablle to stop it. Now that he has shown some ability to stave off his curse driven geas she he not be allowed back into the compact? I'm curious to see how his cursed persona will handle it no longer has a means to summon forth the warhost to huntdown Arithon.

I also am wondering is Arithons child to be raised in althir or is the mother just staying through her pregnancy?


I think thats covers most of it now on to post elsewhere now that im informed. Sorry if not all this made since


   By BillBob on Thursday, February 07, 2008 - 01:50 pm: Edit Post

I just finished today at lunch and all I can say is "Wow! What a ride!"

And titles for the next book or two announed as well. Can't ask for more than that.

Thanks so much Janny for the wild ride you've given us so far.


   By Michelle-Louise Wright on Thursday, February 07, 2008 - 11:57 pm: Edit Post

What I loved about this one was the fact that you truly SEE Lysaer as a genuine hero - in fact more so since he fights the Mistwraith's curse off without the power of inititate mastery unlike Arithon. Although of course we all love Arithon it was the first time I could genuinely FEEL Lysaer as a tragic hero in the way Janny has suggested.

I must admit I was a bit taken aback by the living dragon - since I thought they had willingly forsken Athera? Seemingly this presages the desctruction of humanity according to the compact - since at the moment the sacred trust of the land is mostly f*cked - especially with new desert at Avenor created by drakefire?

(Message edited by admin on February 08, 2008)


   By Jeffrey L Watson on Friday, February 08, 2008 - 07:08 am: Edit Post

I modified the last post to 'obscure' the profanity. I do have the profanity checker turned on for this board but that one slipped through. :-)


   By Hunter on Friday, February 08, 2008 - 08:41 am: Edit Post

Didn't Lysaer have a rather handy little helping hand in his fight with the Curse? Once Lysaer's little helper went away, he reverted to the frothing lunatice of the past five books.

And, my take is a genuine hero would have, in his moments of lucidity, have had the courage to stand up to his rabid followers and tell them to disband and leave. Lysaer has been devilishly clever at getting thousands of his own supporters killed, surely killing a few more thousand to avert the greater injustice of sacking Alestron would have been a "just" solution?

I think Michelle has eloquently summed up the views of the townborn and their appreciation of caring for the land of Athera.. :-)


   By Janny Wurts on Friday, February 08, 2008 - 09:58 am: Edit Post

Oh boy - new faces! Warm welcome here.


   By DarthJazy on Friday, February 08, 2008 - 01:49 pm: Edit Post

Hunter,

Looking at the sacking of Alestron from a leaders or rulers point of view they were right to attack. regardless of who is right or wrong in this war S'byrdion still committed an act of betrayal agains't Lysaer and later Arithon. Now Arithon is infused with compassion which make it easy to overlook or forgive. Lysaers birth right is to persue justice and treason is right up his ally. S'Byrdon had to be brought to justice regardless of everything else. Lysaer fighting the curse allowed his control to not let his warhost kill innocents. This is why F7 stepped in, They were ready to wait out the duke but the duke would rather have all the innocents under his care die than give himself over. Asandir was right to strip his titles and land. He should have left way before when it was painfully obvious he was lost. Any decent ruler would have.


   By Trys on Friday, February 08, 2008 - 04:11 pm: Edit Post

Please be careful, the subject matter of some of these posts is close to Spoiler Material. :-)

Never mind... I thought I was in a different topic. Long day. ::sigh::


   By Hunter on Saturday, February 09, 2008 - 06:41 pm: Edit Post

By what manner did s'Brydion commit a betrayal against Lysaer? Under Kingdom Charter, s'Brydion are oathbound to answer to the caithdein of Melhalla, not the regent of Tysan, Fellowship sanctioned or not.

From early in Ships of Merior when Lysaer forms his alliance with the s'Brydion, it is acknowledged that the clanborn can never pay fealty to the regent of a different Kingdom. Lysaer's alliance with the s'Brydion was purely because their interests at the time - the pursuit, capture and rending of Arithon - were in alignment. I don't recall at any stage the s'Brydion maligning the Fellowship, Ath's Adepts or the fugitive clans nor the s'Brydion formally joining the Alliance of Light, thereby binding themselves in a legal sense with Lysaer.

If the s'Brydion's interests diverged from those of Lysaer and they didn't really bother to tell Lysaer about that, is that a crime that justifies Lysaer launching full scale war on foreign soil where he has no jurisdiction to exterminate a group of people because they happened to disagree with Lysaer by pursuing interests that didn't align with, and be subject to, those of Lysaer's frothing fanatics?

The s'Brydion "crime" was not agreeing to what Lysaer wanted and, had he let them go unscathed, would have been a huge blow to Lysaer's ego and standing. Lysaer is the just force, the avatar heaven (but not Ath?) sent to rid the world of evil.. If the s'Brydions were then able to defy Lysaer, to repudiate and clearly reject his cause, and still live unpunished and whole - what does this say about Lysaer's supposedly god-given right to continue his crusade and his supposedly limitless power. It would have made Lysaer look like the emasculated little tinpot dictator that he is.. and there is no way Lysaer's vanity and ego would stomach such a public face slapping.

Ergo, launch a war to stroke his ego. IMHO, there is no "right" in that, which ever way one wants to look at it.


The Fellowship's removal of Bransian's right to govern was to do with his failure as a leader.


   By Lyssabits on Saturday, February 09, 2008 - 11:32 pm: Edit Post

My only rebuttal to this is that you have to think like Lysaer, not the Fellowship. The s'Brydion may not have done anything wrong under charter law, but Lysaer, as we well know, doesn't honor charter law and by his Alliance of Light standards, they have committed treason. Lysaer's sense of justice, methinks, doesn't always align with the law, but with what he feels is "right". However you spin it, the s'Brydion acted as spies. They used their authority as given them by Lysaer to act against his interests. I think that's at least sorta wrong, even if we liked what they were doing.


   By max on Sunday, February 10, 2008 - 01:15 am: Edit Post

I've never heard of a 'decent leader'. Only the kind that dig in like pitbulls and don't let go of the head position!! [smiling at ya]


   By Hunter on Sunday, February 10, 2008 - 06:13 am: Edit Post

Lysaer really is a "if you're not for me, your agin me" kind of guy. I wholeheartedly agree that my post wasn't from Lysaer's perspective. Although my take from Lysaer's perspective would be even more cynical..

Lysaer has basically known all along that the s'Brydion were going to betray him. It must have occurred to him even when making the original deal with the s'Brydion what would happen should the s'Brydion decide to follow a different path. After all, with Maenelle's blood on his hands, Lysaer's welcome in any clan based enclave would be difficult at best. But, just like when Morriel's upset put pretty lights in the sky, Kevor was called to settle the people of Avenor and Lysaer was pulling his hair out and said, to Sulfin Evend's surprise and some disgust, that the perfect situation had arisen but Lysaer wasn't able to reap what he'd sown, Lysaer had for quite some time been positioning the relationship with the s'Brydion such that it was clear to all that the s'Brydion had betrayed Lysaer and Lysaer was then justified in launching war to crush the rebellion..

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The question is now whether Lysaer's next target is to invade Havish and crush Eldir for trying to play neutral and, as Lysaer views it, be a Fellowship pet. Or whether Lysaer will be trying to stop the avalanche that he created in the Religion of Light.


   By Tygrr on Sunday, February 10, 2008 - 04:26 pm: Edit Post

I agree, it seems that Lysaer was only using the s'Brydion as a political expedient to excuse his warmongering ways. I can't remember which book, (was it GC?) where Lysaer said that he knew the s'Brydion were traitors, when they fabricated the deaths of Cattrick and crew. He chose not to do anything about it as it wouldn't fan his cause for war.

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Yeah, it's really got to ruffle Lysaer's feathers that all the people he has persecuted have taken refuge in Havish. First the mage talent took refuge there, and now the clanborn from Tysan were forced to take exile there. Plus, having the inablitity to move his slave galleys through Havish due to F7 intervention, has to tick him off too!

Not to mention that Eldir was involved with the return of princess Talith way back when she was taken hostage in WoV. I am surprised that he hasn't already done something about that as both the F7 and Arithon were involved.

In the end of Stormed Fortress it almost seemed like Lysaer won back his clear thought, and found the way to see without the curse. Hopefully that will continue without Alithiel's influence. His city has been destroyed, he lost his family, though he knows they are alive. He seems to be effectively hobbled for the present. Unfortunately, Avenor wasn't the only place where his fanatical religion has taken hold, most of the continent believes he is divine. I can only hope that we will see his redemption in the coming books, as we now have had a chance to see his humanity.

Now, for a bit of speculation. Now that both Lysaer and Arithon have bred heirs, the decendents should also carry the trait's of two lines, s'Ahelas as well as what their father is. Could it be possible for them to instead of following in their father's footsteps, follow in their maternal grandmother's? Would it be possible to see a s'Ahelas high king/queen in the near future?


   By julie bryant on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 12:08 pm: Edit Post

I can't get the book. *grumble*. Anything new about Ath's brotherhood or Lysaer's son and queen? (Or his son Kyrialt? Rereading series but not to that part again yet)


   By Clansman on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 12:53 pm: Edit Post

Julie:

Go to this link:

http://amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_ss_w_h_?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Storm ed+Fortress&Go.x=0&Go.y=0&Go=Go

and you can order the book. It will cost about $30.00 US, including S&H, but it is worth it! It should arrive fairly quickly, too.

If $30.00 is a little too pricey for you, maybe someone out there is willing to part with a copy?

Kyrialt is not Lysaer's son. Kevor is. Kyriault is someone else, and I'm not telling what happens with him! You'll have to read it!

Cheers!


   By Kam on Sunday, February 17, 2008 - 10:21 pm: Edit Post

Spoilers. Kinda. Maybe. Perhaps.

I find I have Athera burnout after reading Stormed Fortress. I was really hurt throughout the whole novel by Dakar's constant abuse of Arithon's trust (that's right, I take these things personally). And not just Dakar, really. (Although it's really fascinating how Dakar's character has evolved.)

I understand there's alot at stake but there are some things a friend should just never do. The conception of the daughter is like a big tangle of deceit I wouldn't go near with a 20 yard stick.

It makes me hesistant about reading on, but I find I am pretty curious about Lysaer's redemption now. It's kinda interesting that, for me anyway, Arithon and Lysaer's roles have reversed and I actually am more interested in Lysaer than his half brother.


   By julie on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 10:57 am: Edit Post

Ty Clansman. Had already figured I'd have to do that. I just don't want to wait that long or go through the hassle of obtaining a pre-paid credit card...But for Janny, it's so worth it!


   By Angela Bawden on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 10:50 am: Edit Post

K, I just read the book, and my impressions were mixed. I really loved the magic Arithon did with the sword, and I LOVED the alliance of Davien with the dragon, and finding out how he'd become discorporate was great!!
but there were two things I didn't like: the overuse of adverbs and adjectives...but this could just be my mood of the moment. the other thing I didn't like, and this won't change with my mood, was I didn't like the "healing" of Arithon by the girls switching bodies. I thought we'd established with Moriel becoming Selidie that posession was bad...but this was with consent of both parties, so that kind of annuls that objection...and now Arithon has fostered a kid, so he can die, upping the tension in future books, which should be fun. I guess it comes down to me not liking that scene. It totally makes the similar scene in the previous book understandable, but I really didnt' like that one, and even now that I understand why it was there, I didn't like it. but I know i'm in the minority here, so I"ll not say more. oh well.


   By Meredith Lee Gray on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 12:35 pm: Edit Post

Angela,

I'm surprised you're only just now having complaints about Janny's use of descriptive language. It's pretty much an identifying mark of her writing. ;-) I usually like it, I'm always impressed by Janny's master handling of language. But I know a lot of people, in various reviews on book sites, have said similar things. But usually with the first book in the series, and then they stop and go no further.

I don't think anyone involved was particularly thrilled with the method used to recall Arithon. It was just necessity. *shrug* Like you said, because informed consent was involved, it's not comparable to Morriel's forced possession of Selidie.

And I disagree about Arithon no longer being necessary. The F7 have said that his and Lysaer's gift of elemental mastery may be necessary to solve certain wraith problems. Also that Arithon's Masterbard-ery could possibly be used also to "RIP" those conglomerated angry wraiths--it would just take forever to go through them one-by-one and do so.

Mer


   By Clansman on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 01:12 pm: Edit Post

No way, no how is Arithon now expendable. The tension that has existed throughout the series is that he was the last s'Ffalenn, and he still will be, because his daughter is being given over to the Beidar, in exchange for their help while Arithon was in his swoon. There is still no heir for our prickly Tier s'Ffalenn.

I don't think it has ever been Janny's objective to make us feel good with this series. Her objective has been to make us feel something genuine, to be changed by having read her books. TWoLaS are pretty heavy thematically, and they are not the fun romping adventure that, for instance, To Ride Hell's Chasm is. If Janny wanted us to feel good, the series would have wrapped up in Fugitive Prince, with Arithon marrying Elaira, Lysaer and him being cleansed of the curse, the F7 restored, and the clans coming out of hiding.

Didn't happen that way, and it won't happen easily when it does, if it does. There will be other parts of the story that hurt (I wept when Caoll and Jieret died) in the coming three books.

Ditto what Meredith said with regard to adjectives and adverbs. Janny writes at a university level of comprehension. Most authors write at about grade 8 level. I, for one, appreciate the challenge to the reader, and the increased nuance and levels of depth that it brings to the prose.


   By Auna on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 01:33 pm: Edit Post

A book I was reading last night by Jennifer Roberson actually used 'chiaroscuro' - a very common Janny adjective. It was cool seeing it used elsewhere and thanks to Janny, I know what it means.

Arithon is definitely not expendable... yet. :P


   By Clansman on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 02:37 pm: Edit Post

This is one of those words that pops up as a result of Janny's artistic background. Artists would be much more likely to "use this word in a sentence", as it is much more a part of their everyday work, just as me using the occasional latin phrase to describe a legal maxim like delegates non potest delegare (a delegate has no power to delegate) or res ipsa loqitur (the thing speaks for itself).

Chiaroscuro is a contrast between light and dark, but it is not a word that I ever saw before reading Janny, as I do not know a lot about art. Very apt word to use in a series entitled The Wars of Light and Shadow, no?


   By Janny Wurts on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 09:14 am: Edit Post

Angela Bawden - welcome back.
Given your feelings, the current scene in the draft of Initiate's Trial will intrigue you, no doubt. :-)


   By max on Wednesday, May 20, 2009 - 05:21 am: Edit Post

So...I just finished 'SF'. And OMG!!! But I keep coming back to one question. Are Arithon and Elaira ever going to be able to just 'get it on' without the entire planet sharing the passion? Can't they just have a romantic getaway in a little cabin in the woods? I mean,, talk about 'rock the Casbah'. I feel kind of bad for them. No privacy don't ya know. And on a more personal note, I used to worry that I wouldn't find out what happened in the end because I wouldn't be here for the end. Well 2 months ago it almost happened. I got pneumonia and woke up 6 days later in the ICU of OHSU on a ventilator with tubes down every orifice they could find. The whole 6 days I hallucinated on the medications they gave me and I was a very bad patient. Pulled out tubes at least twice and got out of bed and fell on the floor. I'm sure they have my poster in the ER that says 'Worst Patient Ever'!! You can be sure that next time I won't wait so long to get ahold of the next book. I really could have used some of Elaira's healing magic. [smilin at ya]


   By Janny Wurts on Wednesday, May 20, 2009 - 09:41 am: Edit Post

MAX!!! Wow, so pleased to hear from you! And most of all, that you're still with us. How scary and not fun. I did read in a book once, that the Worst Patients Ever are the survivors. (They know what they want and they do something about it).

You will be pleased to hear that I'm working at the finishing section for the next book. And it would apprear to be coming together smoother than I'd hoped. (First book, new arc - always tougher).

I am thrilled to hear you enjoyed Stormed Fortress.
Thanks for taking the time to write in.


   By Richard McMahon on Monday, April 19, 2010 - 08:09 am: Edit Post

Hi there.
New to this forum but not new to Janny's books - I have been devouring them for years now. Janny, I tell everyone I know that you are my favourite author - thank you, thank you, thank you!

Stormed Fortress was exceptional. I agree with others that there is a beautiful richness and depth to the work.

I disciplined myself not to read the books for a while, because I enjoy them so much - so had left SF there like an unopened chocolate. So, this is why I am late to the read for this one!

Um...though it should not be necessary by now...
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Initial impressions:
Lysaer's fighting of the curse - wow!
Poor Lirenda - I keep hoping for her freedom and redemption!
Morriel - just seems to constantly find new and more vile ways of trying to further her agenda (she often reminds me of a mean version of Coyote pursuing Arithon's Roadrunner)
Elaira - a very strong character and love the way she is able to thread a third course through an "either or" scenario.
Davien and the Fellowship - fascinating to learn the real story of his unravelling!
So much more - but the best is the unpredictability. So many books, I can usually guess which way things may land - but in this world, the characters seem to determine the course, rather than any rigid plotline.

Keep up the great work Janny - you are a genius!


   By Hunter on Monday, April 19, 2010 - 08:25 am: Edit Post

"Poor Lirenda".. now, they are two words I have rarely come across in the same sentence! :-)


   By Kirsten Laurelle Wallace on Monday, April 19, 2010 - 10:47 am: Edit Post

I actually feel some sympathy for Lirenda as well. I think she is a character that's a product of her upbringing. So, even though I don't really like her, she was set up for the fall she experienced. Honestly, no one deserves the life her character lives.


   By Janny Wurts on Monday, April 19, 2010 - 11:20 am: Edit Post

Welcome here Richard McMahon! Lovely to have you.

It's never unnecessary or too late. In fact, your timing is perfect! We have all the books once again out in the USA and in print - and Stormed Fortress's appearance is the first on these shores. Very nice to have an active forum all across the boards because we will be getting new readers.

I am just thrilled to see you enjoyed all the twists in Stormed Fortress - well, wait till you see Initiate's Trial! Not too much longer for you to wait. (The draft's done, I'm working on the polish to turn in.)

By all means wake up this discussion, folks! There are still things in this volume people have missed. :-)


   By Hunter on Tuesday, April 20, 2010 - 09:25 am: Edit Post

It has been said throughout this series that eveyrone who has experienced direct contact with Paravians emerges a changed individual. (Although curiously I might suggest I have yet to see the impact of Elaira's encounter with the unicorn. Dakar weeps at the memory of Paravians which should give some idea).

It is simple to suggest all those who come into contact with both Arithon and Lysaer emerge as changed individuals as well. One therefore wonders where Lirenda, whatever her upbringing, had any chance of encountering Arithon and *not* being changed/corrupted by the process.


   By Martha Bennett on Monday, May 03, 2010 - 07:16 am: Edit Post

Hmmm......Spoilers ahead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




Just finished this weekend, after ignoring my children a lot! Read the whole page here to see what people had been talking about and saw lots of the things I would have said, but some not brought up.

In regards to Bransion and his brothers, thought some things were not in keeping with their history. While always volatile and passionate, I thought they were better than their actions during the sack of Alestron. I couldn't quite bear to watch them consistently betray Arithon, especially after he raised the star song. Usually when people have been touched by his compassion they are changed in a good way, or at least they stop calling him runt, whelp, skinny sorcerer. I know the s'Brydion were always war, war, war and such, but it just felt wrong. However, I loved the ending where they got their comeuppance (except for Mearn, who "saw the light" before to late). Sometimes Arithon's Christ-like turning of the cheek makes me cuckoo and I want someone to get the @ss-whupping they deserve. Asandir was just the fellow to give it to old Bransian.

The other area I can't reconcile, and probably won't ever, is the Athir coupling between Elaira/Glendien and Arithon...even if it was to save him. And it isn't so much the coupling, for I certainly could see their straits....they wanted to bring him back and couldn't find any other way (maybe) but to enact that kind of thing on someone and then not tell him...I don't agree in any way. The fact that Elaira tells Glendien she will have full memory of what happened to her body so that she won't feel raped is just ....it gives me shudders that they don't extend the same courtesy to Arithon. No one should be kept from the fact that they have a created a child. I don't care that the Beidar called in debt....to me it goes a against the Laws the Fellowship has sworn to uphold. I still don't understand why Elaira isn't talking, or why she doesn't feel guilty (maybe she does, but I'd have trouble looking him in the face until I told the truth.) The whole thing sticks in my craw, way more then Dakar having to "help" Arithon to "completion" in Halwythwood did (and I couldn't get that one out of my mind for a while as just a violation of privacy). So, while I have to say Janny sure knows how to make me uneasy and desperate for the next book, I cannot like what was done to and even for Arithon, and only really like Talvish at this point as he is unaware of what went on. The funny thing is I always knew this was going to happen to Arithon the minute relations between he and Elaira became so fraught with danger. The minute Janny wrote of Dakar getting that funny look in his eye I was convinced, especially with Kyrialt dead (pisser too, I loved that guy!) Well, more later but I wanted to get this off my chest. I feel better! And don't get me wrong, love this whole series. Just irked by some things, and I guess that is what a writer wants.....not all "Unicorns and Rainbows" all the time...


Spoilers Above!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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