Archive through November 01, 2011

Janny Wurts Chat Area: Arc 4: Sword of the Canon: Initiate's Trial: Spoiler Topics: New Spoiler thread for Initiate's Trial: Archive through November 01, 2011
   By Sleo on Friday, October 21, 2011 - 07:50 pm: Edit Post

Dang! I lied! I swear, I looked all over for the Start New Thread button!

At any rate, this is a thread for any spoilers for chapters after chapter two!

I swear, I CANNOT WAIT until someone swats that #$%@& Morriel/Selidie Prime! GRRRRR!


I mean, Annette, didn't you just want to strangle her when she interrupted Daliana and Lysaer???

   By Annette on Friday, October 21, 2011 - 08:11 pm: Edit Post

Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler.

Something was bound to go wrong there, but I am looking forward to Lysaer and Daliana eventually consummating a relationship. From Lysaer's reaction, she seems a perfect match, a setting where he is not fighting for his sanity would probably be better.

Speaking of relationships, perusing the glossary I have just noticed something. Jeynsa ended up marrying Sevrand s'Brydion, who would have guessed that one. I am wondering if any of the s'Brydion had anything to do with Arithon ending up handed over to the Koriani.

   By Sleo on Friday, October 21, 2011 - 08:38 pm: Edit Post



I don't think s'Brydion had anything to do with it. I thought the book was pretty clear it was the Companion, Eriegal.

It looks to me like she's heading toward love being the thing that can possibly save Lysaer. Or at least be a step in his redemption. I'm amazed I actually like the guy in this book.

I got very teary in the scene with the King of Havish. When he agrees to confront the Light after Dakar presents his case.

   By Annette on Friday, October 21, 2011 - 09:12 pm: Edit Post

Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler.

I doubt Eriegal was in on it alone, but we will have to wait to see if Melhalla has any further traitorous smirch on their clan reputation. Keldmar's wife had a suspicious name though, and Sevrand's was not promising. You have to wonder sometimes how the clan born feel about a name with bad connotations. Although I thought snake might have been for wisdom or cunning, turned out not to be the case.

Sevrand (sevaer'an'd) - one who travels behind, a follower

Sindelle root meaning: san - black, dark; ael - destiny; 'e - suffix for future in potentia

Eriegal - snake

It was interesting to see the crown jewels in action, explains why the royal defenders were dying so fast when resisting the spread of the Mistraith

   By Maggie on Friday, October 21, 2011 - 09:14 pm: Edit Post




Just got finished reading this morning! I was going to wait rather than award the sneaky Kobo for putting it out before the release date. But my greediness for the book overcame my better judgement, and I got it anyway... And I was NOT disappointed. Except that part where it ended. That was pretty disappointing. Great book Janny! I really really REALLY loved it!

BUT, here are (some) of my thoughts:

the most AH-HA! moment of the book for me was almost certainly where Janny tells us that the Biedar know where the Paravians are!

Also, who else thinks that Jessian Oathkeeper is the same person as Enithen Tuer?

And my favorite line was the way Janny described The Hatchet, "A puny laughing stock at love." I lol'd

I was trying to figure out the worldsend gates... Anyone have any thoughts?
What came through the gates (as far as I can tell)

Northgate = Dragons
Southgate = Marak and the Mistwraith
West Gate = Mearth (where Arithorn and Lysaer come through)Also where the state jewels were mined.

Anyone know of any mention of the east gate? I didn't see one in this book, but maybe I missed it in one of the others.

   By Annette on Friday, October 21, 2011 - 10:35 pm: Edit Post

Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler.

While I do suspect some of these characters being spirits we might have known under another name, not sure I would ever connect Jessian with Enithen Tuer. Jessian was way before human settlement on Athera, her story can be found in the short story Sundering Star.

To guess what might return through Eastgate we would have to know what if anything went through it in the first place. Janny seems to be keeping it a secret. They should have put a lock on that Northgate once the dragons went through.

   By Maggie on Saturday, October 22, 2011 - 08:33 am: Edit Post

Ah, I didnt realize there was more to that story. I'll have to go read it now... Thanks annette!

   By Sleo on Saturday, October 22, 2011 - 09:11 am: Edit Post


I thought the Jessian bit was fascinating!

I finished it last night and loved the ending. Only problem is I want to know what happens next! The beginning of a new arc.... always a bit slower. I remember feeling a jolt when I read Fugitive Prince and not liking it as much until I read it a second time.

King Gestry was soooo sad!

I would've liked to see more of Selidie's anger. I can't WAIT until she gets hers.
I wonder if Lysaer will be able to live with what he's done.
Dakar, have you noticed? is always thinking the worst is going to happen.
I wonder what happened to Khadrien?
I LOVE Isfarren! What a horse!
And Arithon, snagging the spells! It's gonna be hard to get this guy, you idjit Koriani! His new powers, even without knowing the past, are AWESOME!

And I finally understand why they kicked Dakar out of the Fellowship. So he could act on their behalf.

And Luhaine! Sacrificing himself for Davien! Hopefully Davien will show a little gratitude. He's awfully fond of Elaira and methinks she's gonna need some help.

Anyone want to wager that she's going to take Selidie down???

And I think our questions about necromancy are answered. Many strings are tied off, or we got more information about them!

   By Trys on Saturday, October 22, 2011 - 11:27 am: Edit Post


As to a lock on Northgate, in way they did - Chaimistarizog. But we don't why he's not minding the gate. My guess is there's a reason why the gate is being left in a a bidirectional state.

   By Sleo on Saturday, October 22, 2011 - 02:41 pm: Edit Post


Absolutely! There are no throw away lines in Wurts books. I noticed that one, too! And wondered where he was.

   By Maggie on Saturday, October 22, 2011 - 09:36 pm: Edit Post


Sleo, I would not take your wager on Elaira taking Selidie down. Its gonna happen, I've been convinced for a while. In one of the books, one of the fellowship makes a throwaway comment that he thinks she is the only Korathian that has the ability to master the final test to become prime, and that so many of Morriel's candidates died because it gets harder and harder with each generation (I assume because the final stage is mastering the waystone, and they never clear the stone)... Not sure which book mentioned it, but I remember the line...

Also, I think that Northgate is bi-directional because all of the drakes that did not want to go into a long term (nearly permanent) sleep in one of the grimwards went somewhere else. But they were able to come back because... Okay, I admit, I'm having a little bit more trouble with that part. But if I could hazard a random guess, I'd say that they come back because some of the Drakes might decide they want to be near the paravians.

   By Annette on Sunday, October 23, 2011 - 04:21 am: Edit Post

Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler

The dragons in the grimwards are dead not sleeping, their spirits whether awake or dreaming are not free to go through the gate. The live dragons hibernating perhaps like mountainous caves like Seshkrozchiel. It seems she might have returned to the one under the Mathorn Mountains. I do not see how a fellowship sorcerer being in the same kingdom as Arithon breaks their oath of non intervention, be interesting to see if Davien has to leave before Arithon crosses into Rathain.

Probably the dragons would not agree to leave if the gate was locked behind them.

   By Sleo on Sunday, October 23, 2011 - 08:31 am: Edit Post

That bit about Davien prompts me to wonder if he should stay outside the F7 circle so that he can help Arithon? Sneaky.

   By Trys on Sunday, October 23, 2011 - 12:25 pm: Edit Post

Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler

I can't see anyone convincing a dragon to do anything that it did not want to do. My guess is that most of them went through Northgate for reasons we don't know. It could have happened long before humanity arrived and perhaps shortly after the Fellowship did.

As to where Chaimistarizog is, I think s/he is on the other side of Northgate, was serving as a guard to ensure that no one wandered through but someone did and that prompted Sethvir's question as to where s/he was. Does anyone else think there should be some concern that there are drakes on the other side of Northgate and it may not be guarded?

I did find Asandir's response, "Not yet." Additionally, we know why he doesn't know. The drake was young. So the dragons are breeding on the other side of Northgate.

   By Annette on Sunday, October 23, 2011 - 09:28 pm: Edit Post

Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler

But Davien is still part of the fellowship of 7, would the stone not crack if Davien helped Arithon? Mind you Sethvir seemed to help Elaira when she was watching Gestry's coronation.

I thought all the gates were created as part of the compact with the Paravians that allowed humanity to settle on Athera. Unless they created the Northgate earlier that would mean the dragons only left just before or sometime after humanity settled.

Perhaps not relevant but Chaimistarizog was the fire gate keeper, which should be the Southgate, on the Paravia side it is connected to the North or earth gate. A similar thing happened with the Westgate, on Mearth's side it was connected to the Eastgate. Besides if there had been a dragon standing guard on the Northgate all this time on the Paravia side you would think we would have heard something about it before now. Seshkrozchiel seemed to have been the first appearance of a live dragon for a while.

If the Koriani had 4 skulls of unhatched dragons, it is even possible dragons were breeding on this side of the gate after the humans arrived. Either that or it takes a while for dragons to hatch. If they had been Seshkrozchiel's you would have thought she would have noticed a bit sooner they were missing.

   By Sleo on Monday, October 24, 2011 - 07:16 am: Edit Post

There's a scene somewhere talking about Gestry's ancestor fighting the drake spawn. I got the impression that dragons were around in the early days. Also, Selidie doesn't seem too surprised at Seshkrozchiel's appearance back in Stormed Fortress... or here, either. BTW, I loved the scene where she perches on the roof of the inn where Dakar and Daliana are trapped! Hilarious!

As for Davien still being a part of the compact, is he? Hmmm. Didn't he break it when he incited the uprising?

   By Mike A on Monday, October 24, 2011 - 08:20 am: Edit Post

Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler

Sleo and Maggie,

I for one am not convinced either Elaira or Arithon will be the one to take down the Koriathain. In the scene between Elaira and the Biedar eldest, Elaira is charged to deliver the stone knife to Arithon, but the crone very conspicuously does not confirm that Arithon is the one destined to wield it.

I also found it interesting that we got confirmation that the Koriathain (specifically Selidie) are practicing necromancy.

   By Roisin on Monday, October 24, 2011 - 09:36 am: Edit Post

Just a thanks for the book! Just got it... getting ready to reeeeeead.

   By Paige Madison on Monday, October 24, 2011 - 09:54 am: Edit Post

Spoiler, Spoiler, Spoiler

Wow finished the book last night! I definitely think Daliana is my favorite new character! I love it when a girl doesn't take crap from anybody! Davien's rescue of Daliana and Dakar was classic! Nothing like a dragon to liven things up!

An interesting speculation, Morriel/Seldie's eagerness to break the compact seems either to not share the Fellowship's understanding that all of mankind would have to be destroyed or that proscribed knowledge is more important to her than potential destruction of mankind. Where does she fall here? She seems pretty cold about individual lives but seems to favor the supremacy of mankind above all else. I seriously doubt she is ignorant of the terms of the Compact, that's why I believe she has different point of view on the consequences of the Compact being broken.

   By Annette on Monday, October 24, 2011 - 10:33 am: Edit Post

Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler

Mike A, the Biedar pretty much confirmed Arithon was going to be the one to wield the knife in Stormed Fortress. That might not have anything to do with Selidie/Morriel's demise though, her own waystone is more likely to be her downfall. Either that or trying to harm Arithon some other way that backfires on her.


They had battled ravenous drake spawn, and died in the bale-fires of dragons gone rogue.


Which bare vista jutted against the storm-whipped breakers of the northern ocean, a place gashed across by the scars from the last outbreak of drake war, fought to a stand-off fifty-six years ago

Rogue dragons it seems have been causing trouble only recently on Athera. So the comment Sleo is thinking of might not relate to when the dragons first left.

   By Sleo on Monday, October 24, 2011 - 12:04 pm: Edit Post

@Annette and @Mike


Yes, I had forgotten that bit about the Elder bidding Elaira to give the knife to Arithon (thus forecasting future contact :-) ). But yes! Necromancy thy name is Selidie! Thus 'the abomination'.

But WHEN were the drake wars? I missed the 'fifty-six' years ago! Hmmm.

   By Sleo on Monday, October 24, 2011 - 12:06 pm: Edit Post

@Paige - that bit about Selidie/Morriel's lack of reluctance about breaking the compact has always puzzled me, unless she's been in control so long she thinks she's invincible or omnipotent and can somehow escape the scourage?

   By Trys on Monday, October 24, 2011 - 12:12 pm: Edit Post


My take on Selidie is that she thinks that when she breaks the Compact she will be able to deal with anything that might come to pass. Perhaps she overestimates her own arcane abilities... underestimates the F7... fails to take into account any drakes that might be about... or is just, simply, quite, MAD. ;)

   By Sleo on Monday, October 24, 2011 - 12:24 pm: Edit Post

@Trys, LOL, All of the above?

   By Trys on Monday, October 24, 2011 - 12:26 pm: Edit Post

Sleo, I think it's the last one.

   By Sleo on Monday, October 24, 2011 - 01:00 pm: Edit Post

Trys, I'm not gonna argue with that one. :-)

   By Mike A on Monday, October 24, 2011 - 03:45 pm: Edit Post


Spoiler, Spoiler, Spoiler...

I would certainly enjoy seeing Selidie dealt with by Elaira. I guess my point was mostly that Janny was awfully conspicuous with that non-answer by the eldest, and to me that usually points to misdirection.

   By Annette on Monday, October 24, 2011 - 05:13 pm: Edit Post

Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler

Sleo we all missed the last drake wars since they occurred between Stormed Fortress and Initiate's Trial. The wars were mentioned in Chapter VII Confrontations, while Asandir is confronting the young dragon.

I have lots of thoughts on Koriani and mad Primes, might start a new thread for it though.

   By David Cornelson on Tuesday, October 25, 2011 - 10:02 pm: Edit Post

Book completed - SPOILERS - my thoughts...

The ending seemed sudden. Not overly complaining, but I would have liked something meatier to end it...possibly Lysaer waking up to see Daliana, a discussion by Sethvir about beating Selidie, Arithon remembering book please!

Even so, I will assimilate the book and re-read more slowly in a month or so, when I get the hardback.

Well done've managed to extend the high quality of writing, but also add what would seem to be a completely different story-telling style. I can't put my finger on it, but this book stands apart from the previous books.

Thoughts about the future...

I have for some time now contemplated Lysaer's redemption from the curse and a reunion with Arithon. I don't buy the fellowship's assertion that he's fatally flawed. I look forward to Arithon's coronation, the imprisoned Mystwraith redeemed into Traithe's lost spirit, and the healing of Athera.

I miss the s'Brydion clan and all of the other characters we left behind in the past. It will make reading Stormed Fortress almost sorrowful, knowing nearly all of those characters are gone.

I'm rambling...more book!


   By Sleo on Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - 06:25 am: Edit Post

Yes, David. There is some indefinable difference in this book. I couldn't put my finger on it, either.

I like your vision of the happy ending.

   By Annette on Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - 03:15 pm: Edit Post

Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler

Probably all the character development as we were introduced to all the new characters and all the changes in the old ones were what made Initiate's Trial seem so different to the past books. Janny's style has changed a bit since she wrote Curse of the Mistwraith all those years ago. Not that there was not plenty of tears, tension, action and amazing feats, but we also got more humour and a more human side to some of the characters.

   By Paige Christie on Friday, October 28, 2011 - 07:05 am: Edit Post

Hi all - new to the chat area and happy to be here.

I just devoured the book and feel the need to go back and re-read stormed fortress before I do a re-read on Initiate's Trial.


Biggest Revelation: The Beidar arriving on Athera before the Fellowship and having their own 'treaty' with the Paravians. That's got to make things interesting as we go forward.

Glad to have read the short stories prior to this or parts of this book would have had me scratching my head.

This book felt different than the others...I think because less time was spent deep within the POV of characters we already know and more time in an ethereal realm of characters' vision and what they see and overhear through 'sight' and attachment to the mysteries. Also, we got less Arithon's POV, which makes sense because he is not in complete possession of his own POV.

Really glad to see Lysaer had a few revelations in the last 200+ years, sad to know that that was probably only possible due to the horror of Arithon's isolation in captivity. Also glad to see a woman strong enough to understand what needs to be done to try and battle the curse with him. I seriously dig Daliana.

Dakar's maturity is also pretty cool to see. I hope someday he will be able to forgive himself so he can reconnect with Arithon, because we know Arithon's compassion will not allow him to hate Dakar, even though he may never trust him completely again. Looking forward to seeing how that is worked out over the next 2 books as well.

Elaira - She is SO much stronger that she knows. I fear Morriel figuring out just HOW strong Elaira really is...And the separation of Elaira and Arithon is just killing me! Gah! Well, Davien's fountain said 500 years of suffering...We're 300 or so years through that...

Ready for the next book and for someone to finally have the power to deal with Morriel and her madness. I wonder if Janny will work more of her magic and not just 'take her out' but find a way to release her from her insanity and offer grace to her despite what she has done. And I wonder what part Lirenda will play in all this, because I know she's just going to POP if she ever gets loose. Curious to see...


   By David Gardner on Saturday, October 29, 2011 - 02:33 am: Edit Post

spoilers from me...!

ok, I've finished the book. I did enjoy it, but I do have a few criticisms/whines I want to get off my chest, mainly with the time jump.

Let's just jump a few hundred years into the future where Arithon is captive due to events off-page, with convenient amnesia... Sorcerers are hamstrung, Lysaer has had sufficient time away from the Mistwraith's curse to realise that his movement is a sham and leave, etc, etc.

And yes, while we did see/explore a lot of those scenarios in flashbacks or introspection, I felt like rushing over all those things basically wrote off Traitor's Knot and Stormed Fortress. This book could almost be a direct sequel to Peril's Gate.

Still no sign of Ciladis (I briefly thought it would be him and not Asandir that met the 3 kids in uh, Athili (sp)). Still no redemption for Lirenda. (I think she deserves it). Still no punishment for Morriel. Still no more freedom for Elaira, although at least now she's aware of how to reclaim her inherent right to freedom, she just chooses to stay bound rather than murder her focus crystal.

I was VERY pleased to see it more obviously "spelled out" that Lysaer isn't inherently evil- there have been threads/debates in the past on these boards about how awful etc he is. We've got some great examples of how once he extricated himself from the True Sect and became Lord Mayor that he started correcting a lot of the horrible vices & practices of the Etarrans -- changing the headhunters' practices, slavery, etc.

I was very pleased at Dakar's self-realisation towards the end that he'd been released by the Fellowship's service "deliberately".

Anyways, bring on the next book! Hopefully not so long a wait until the next part.

   By Julie on Tuesday, November 01, 2011 - 06:07 pm: Edit Post

I also would like to see Daliana and Lysaer's relationship evolve in love. And I hope Elaira and Daliana meet up- as Dakar hinted that would be a force to be reckoned with! In my fantasy the mates of both princes are the cause of Koriathan undoing. Remember Sulfen Evend used the Beidar knife to help Lysaer cut the necromacer bindings.

   By Sleo on Tuesday, November 01, 2011 - 06:54 pm: Edit Post

True, Julie, true. Yes, my mind boggles at the thought of those two together!