Archive through December 14, 2006

Janny Wurts Chat Area: Wars of Light and Shadow Contest: Stormed Fortress: Speculation: Archive through December 14, 2006
   By Hunter on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 06:43 pm: Edit Post

This could be a "scene I'd like to see"..

The scene – Alestron (of course!). At Wyntock Gate. Lysaer and his armies have taken the outer town. The s’Brydions, including Fionn Areth, are in the inner citadel. Elaira is also in the inner citadel, with Jeynsa. Also there, unbeknownst to the s'Brydions, hiding beneath a glamour is Arithon. Despite disowning the s’Brydion, he cannot, so returns. But hidden. He’s also mastered the Curse sufficiently and his magecraft has grown sufficiently, possibly with Davien’s help, to be able to hide himself from Lysaer and the Curse.

The plot, in point form..

I'm thinking it's time for Arithon and Lysaer to meet again..

   By motley on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 02:56 am: Edit Post

Oh yes, I agree, I do like the idea of an Arithon, Lysaer meeting. Certainly the way Davien was training him, seems to anticipate it.

But, but, but...

The curse is not beaten so easily. Lysaer has to choose not to want to be wholey owned by it. Arithon can't 'rescue' him, only beat it back for a while - Sulfin did as much for him, and still Lysaer let the curse gain back control. I wonder whether Lysaer can ever regain anything more than perhaps a peaceful death... hopefully after he has battled the Marak Wraiths and the Mistwraith... that's another part I'm keen to read more about - the storming of Athera by the wraiths...

   By motley on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 06:36 am: Edit Post

Drakes - I've just read in SoM that some still could be curled up in volcanic vents - and Davien talked about 'the dreams of Haspastions (sp?) mate...' will they stir in Stormed Fortress?

I can't believe it's going to be nearly a year still... *agony* :-)


   By Caroline Andrews on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 08:48 pm: Edit Post

The very barest bones in no particular order:

I reckon that Ciladis will turn up, having been rescued by the Paravians - who have been waiting till conditions are suitable for them to return.

Davien and the rest of the Seven will be reconciled and so will the Sisterhood and all the other tribes and sects who, through persecution, were forced to live in varying degrees of obscurity. They will found a new "united fellowship" of magic-users.

There will be a stupendous battle between Lysaer and Arithon (which Arithon will win) and the Mistwraith and all the other fell spawn will be defeated in the process and exiled behind VERY stout barriers.

Lysaer will beg forgiveness of Arithon and they will be reconciled.

Dakar will sober up and become a wizard.

Alaira will become "superhuman" (maybe helped by the Paravians) so that she and Arithon can be King and Queen of the newly united kingdom.

   By Trys on Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 08:10 am: Edit Post


Was this speculation for Stormed Fortress or Arc V? :-)

   By Caroline Andrews on Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 06:43 pm: Edit Post

Hi Trys :-). I'm now registered and using the name Dianthus (which I use for several other forums too since the old memory isn't very good nowadays :-)).

I had another think after I'd posted my original post and decided that it would be more likely that Lysaer would rule the new kingdom while Arithon and Alaira would live with the Paravians - since Arithon appears to be becoming very much like a Paravian anyway.

I can't wait for Stormed Fortress to appear (how do you do italics and other formatting in here?). It takes a very special author for me to actually buy a fiction book (I normally just borrow them from my local library), but Janny's books are so multilayered that, like the books of Tolkien and a very few other authors, they're worth buying and keeping and rereading because you can get something different from them each time.

   By Trys on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 05:19 am: Edit Post

Hi Caroline,

Welcome to the board.

On the left under documentation is a link, Formatting. If you click that it will take you to a page the explains how to format text.

Also, if you want Dianthus to show with your posts instead of your real name, change the Full Name in your profile to Dianthus. :-)


   By Jo on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 03:23 pm: Edit Post

My guesses are

1- Sulfin and Arithon meet. Sulfin tries to engage Arithon in a sword fight but Arithon refuses (hopefully he has clothes on as end of TK he was naked). They have a chat, Sulfin realises that Lysaer's warhost is deluded and Arithon is a very nice man just has a few issues.

2- Fionn sacrifices himself after hearing testimony from Sidir about what happend at Tal Quorin. (sorry about spelling)

3- Lysaer's warhost succeeds in the ruin of the S'Brydon's citadel but doesn't succeed in killing all of them.

4- Jeynsa realises what a cow she has been with the help of the caithdein in Melhalla.

5- Elaira amd Arithon do finally consumate their relationship with no interference from anyone.

However I really like the ideas that Hunter put forward.

   By Dianthus on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 06:28 pm: Edit Post

Ah, thanks Trys :-). All done and dusted as they say :-)!

   By Neil on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 04:37 am: Edit Post

My worry is that Arithon will suffer in doing good deeds and that this may warp him.

Lysaer may well redeem himself (the centaur hints in PG that all Lysaer has to do is admit he is cursed and he will have taken the first step to redemption...

In TK Lysaer is influenced temporarily by Sulfin and considers whether his actions are curse influenced...he'll probably blame the curse on Arithon rather than the mistwraith itself. Lysaer seems to have forgotten for now the misttwraith as a source of future danger)

Sulfin, if he continues to live, sees things in context better than any townborn we have yet seen...but he's walking a fine line. If he does meet Arithon, I don't think they'd cross swords...Sulfin is not stupid. I don't think they'll meet...Sulfin will meet the tribes who'll no doubt teach him something interesting

   By Hunter on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 09:06 am: Edit Post

On a very different, and much darker tack for Stormed Fortress possibilities..

Something like:
- Selidie is able to regain power over Elaira and uses her as bait to capture Arithon. Arithon submits rather than see Elaira harmed. This might be the vision (Morriel's?) of Arithon on the stone slab in apparent disregard for his state.
- Lysaer finally wakes up to just how much Elaira means to Arithon (which he knows from the scene in Etarra in Curse) - and storms the Koriani and captures Elaira for *his* ends to bring Arithon down. In Lysaer's view, Arithon is responsible for: 1) Their mother leaving Amroth and slighting the s'Ilessid name with the liaison with Avar; 2) "corruption" of Talith and subsequent betrayal of Lysaer; and 3) Arithon being in league with s'Brydion is sure proof of the corruption of Ellaine. Killing or otherwise harming Elaira might be a "just" outcome in Lysaer's view. (Given her Paravian blessing, patronage of Ath's hostel, Davien's keen interest and her being visited by most of the rest of the Fellowship at one point or another, as well as Arithon, would any of these allow harm to come to her?)
- Whilst in Koriani captivity, the proximity of Arithon, Lirenda and Lirenda's spell crystal combine to free Lirenda of Morriel's captivity and Lirenda escapes. Arithon also departs to confront Lysaer and rescue Elaira.
- I keep thinking Morriel has to be sucked into the Great Waystone at some stage but am not sure it's this book. Without Lirenda to assist with the Great Waystone and the iyat buried in there, Morriel is rendered powerless, mostly.

   By Jo on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 03:23 pm: Edit Post

I have recently been wondering about the implications if Lysaer knew how much Arithon loved Elaira. Can't remember which book it was in think it was TK where someone mentioned that their love was not public knowledge. Not in those words though.

   By Hunter on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 10:42 pm: Edit Post

At Etarra just prior to the failed coronation, Elaira came to observe Lysaer. Lysaer recognized her, told her of the come uppance on top of Kieling and that Arithon cares for her deeply.

Outside of the clans and the Fellowship, I'm not sure how much even Selidie is aware of their relationship.

If Lysaer was to *somehow* learn of Elaira's worth to Arithon, Lysaer would stop at nothing I think to get her to exact revenge on Arithon.

   By Laneth Shadow-Walker on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 10:59 pm: Edit Post

With relation to Elaira, I think her role in the entire saga has been underplayed by our fascination with the other characters. Whilst there are those of us who hang on to every word written about her, just like we do with Arithon, (and some of us, Davien), I feel that there are a few who've given a decent chunk of thought as to where her story seems to be leading.

Arithon & Lysaer are fated to have a stand-up-knock-down sometime or other; The Fellowship are stretched thin and will remain so as long as there is civil unrest and suspicion of magick; The townsmen and clans are either going to merge (as Arithon hopes) or declare all out war and march against each other;

Also, the Koriathain have been portrayed as a bunch of primped hens running around with no determinable goal other than the capture and extortion of Arithon. Their other motives have been petty power struggles in comparison - there's no real hint at their ultimate path.

So, where does Elaira's path lead?
Whose past is it tied in with? Her street urchin history belies any ties to bloodlines or claimable past, and disallows us as readers a clear path to guage Who she actually could be within the Atheran timeline.

I've loved her as a character, equally with Arithon which is saying something for me, since I started the books. There's been times where I got frustrated with reading both Lysaer & Arithon's chapters and skipped ahead to find Elaira again - she's fascinating in her simplicity and mesmerising in her complexity.

A paradox I'm sure all the Fellowship would love to try to nut out in that dank tower called Althain...

   By Neil on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 05:29 am: Edit Post

"Elaira will come to know Arithon best"

Arithon & Lysaer seem to have to deal with the mistwraith together at some point?

   By bart on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 01:20 pm: Edit Post

Being that fionn areth is the spitting image of arithon, he and elaira are going to hit it off, go off to the said hayloft, do the whammy and get her with child, being that enchantments can get convulted, because of the enchantment on fionn, he fathers a child with the s'faleann gift of compassion, but not farsight.
For some Meanwhile because of the aths brotherhoods meddling and lysaers offsprings foresight, he gets one of the priestesses with a bun in the oven.
Years pass and the offsprings get together and whup the mistwraiths ass, YEAH!
Thats what I'm talking about.
Oh by the way one of the paravians drop onto lysaers doorstep, and he fries the poor bugger.
But it's all a part of a cunning cunning plan...
Traithe gets hit by a mistwraiths nasty space going cousins by a levinbolt out of the blue,
Bonds with his raven, and becomes a flying super-sorcerer, with all of his memories and abilities restored plus all of the canny raven instincts.
It's demon ass-whupping time!
Bar none.

   By Clare Mee on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 08:58 am: Edit Post


I’m new to the chat area, I just finished reading Traitor’s Knot. When I saw this contest I just had to post.

I agree with Hunter’s prediction that Lirenda will be freed from her Koriani vow.

She’ll do it by accident, she’ll just snap one day when she is doing a particularly demeaning task like scrubbing the latrines.

She’ll go and get washed and perfumed and dressed in some of the silk clothes she loves, but she’ll realise the potential of her position.

She’ll realise that she is free and that nobody else has realise that she is free or that they themselves can be free. She’ll see the potential to have everything she ever wanted, if she can remove Selidie/Moreil. So she’ll get back in to her dirty clothes and finish the demeaning horrible job she was given.

She’ll start plotting, and will manage to break Moreil’s possession of Seledie through subterfuge, she’ll then claim that whatever freed Seledie freed her too. She’ll be able to explain all about how she was unjustly bound into servitude by Moreil because she figured out what was going on. She’ll have Seledie ushered away by the healers to be healed and will arrange a succession trial for herself. She will come close to losing everything she is, but in the end will triumph and will emerge as the new Prime.

When news reaches Elaira that Lirenda is Prime and has recalled her to an audience with her, Elaira will journey via a Hostel of Ath’s adepts where she will send a plea for fellowship help.

Lirenda will start plotting to destroy Arithon.

Anyway, that’s my best guessimate


   By Hunter on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 10:21 am: Edit Post

I don't believe Lirenda will plot to destroy Arithon, I can only envisage that Arithon's compassion will drive her to the brink of madness, similar to people who can't handle the presence of Paravians and end up joining Ath's Adepts.

And if she meets Kevor.. that would be rather ironic... Lysaer tried to forge an alliance with Morriel that went pear shaped.. if Lirenda hooked up with Kevor, the respective next generations making something work might be interesting.

We've seen Elaira learning all sorts of interesting things in the hostel, assuming Lirenda could get free and enter a hostel, I would think she would then, under Ath's Law, not Morriel's, be free to embrace the code of Aths' Adepts and join them.

Unlike Morriel, Lirenda I think is capable of redemption. What the Koriathain look like at the end of SF might be anyone's guess. A broken force with the "Great Waystone" now the "Great Collection of Shards containing past Primes, including Morriel" is probably too much to hope. I'm really hoping Morriel catches Arithon is this book. Having not learnt her past lessons from Arithon or the very painful Davien lesson, Morriel may just find that Arithon cornered is far, far more dangerous than him free to travel the countryside - at least where Morriel's longevity is concerned.

Arithon put the iyat into the Great Waystone. Arithon had the iyats doing all sorts of fun things - I think it very dangerous to assume the iyat in the Great Waystone has completed its task. It's quite likely a dormant cipher to be awakened at the time of Arithon's choosing to do a specific task - like dump out the previous Primes' knowledge for review? Or give the Great Waystone the ability to refuse Morriel's dominance?

   By HJ on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 07:33 pm: Edit Post

I think Arithon's warped phase is mostly behind him. I think he's thinking clearly and functioning fully now, but I think one of the days he's going to get really angry...

   By BILLEEBEE on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 09:02 am: Edit Post

mmmm.. I'm enjoying reading the speculation and perspectives!! I thought bart's sounded very Hollywood!! As for the next arc all I can say is that I'm dying to get my hands on it!! hopefully it will satisfy my curiosity and not leave me hanging like TK did. Don't think I could handle another year in waiting. Looks like when i finally do get a copy my poor hubby will be wife-less for a week!! Oh well the price we pay for wonderfully exciting literature. Cheers Janny

   By Blue on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 04:54 pm: Edit Post

Clare's got some interesting ideas - wouldn't Lirenda freeing herself just send Morriel/Selidie into "hair ripping fury" as Elaira put it?

The realization that she is free, or that she could appeal to the F7 for help, however, would take a big step. She could do it, Lirenda is no dummy, but WILL she?

Hunter, though I do like the suggestion of the Great Waystone being turned into Great Collection of Shards, we should remember to think kindly of that poor stone, which is, after all, enslaved and cranky because it is not being allowed cleanse, which would make it feel and likely act better.

   By Hunter on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 05:29 pm: Edit Post

Blue - is cleansing the same as the Koriani threat of turned failed initiates into mindless zombies? Is the stone itself completely blanked, consciousness and all, by that process? Makes a stark choice for the wee rock - oblivion by cleansing or oblivion by shattering.

The stone's best option for a happy future is for Elaira to take over the Koriathain and teach them to work in concert with their focus jewels, not treat them as dumb tools to be mastered and whipped into compliance.

The Great Waystone is one of the few remaining objects on Athera that retains knowledge of humanity from before the great cataclysm and the deployment of Calum Kincaide's great weapon. As such it has both knowledge proscribed under the Compact and a source of rich and valuable information for a humanity who may in the future again go space faring. The $64,000 question is how such knowledge might get out from Koriani clutches, the Compact either observed or having reached it's logical conclusion and humanity, having redeemed itself, is able to again engage in space travel and other such activities currently foreign to all on Athera, except the Fellowship and their rusting space ship in Crater Lake.

   By Laneth Shadow-Walker on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 10:20 pm: Edit Post

For the cleansing issue with the Crystals, there was the case when a Koriani Senior? was on Arithon's ship and (Caolle?) dipped her personal crystal in salt water...

Cleansing would have that effect on all initiates, from my pov, as it directly severs the link to the focus stone their oath and longevitiy is tied into.

Elaira's stone is still tied to the Skyron focus, however it is serving willingly and by it's own choice. Whether her crystal is cleansed in salt water and effects her the same I wouldn't be able to say.

As for the threat of mindless zombieism, The personal crystal (that's tied directly with the individual's being) is cleansed, however I think that the individual's consciousness is more ripped from them and their stone and stored in the focus.
The consciousness that resides henceforward would be aware but impersonal. Lacking its original humanity, resembling in small part the free wraiths of Marak.

With the knowledge of Earth in the G.Waystone, how do we know that Sethvir hasn't allowed the stone some reprieve from that forced storage and has purposefully taken what knowledge there was and either erased it or transferred it elsewhere?

He seems cunning enough to have taken that liberty, otherwise I believe Morriel would have been far more dangerous than she is, (or has presented herself so far).

   By Neil on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 04:19 am: Edit Post

I suspect that Morriel is going to be "dealt" with by a now fully-functioning and growing Arithon as she continues to pursue him.

But Arithon seems preoccupied with responsibility to Shand at the end of TK. Elaira and Arithon seem to have been frustrated by F5 intervention also in TK also. But one of the last triplets at the end of TK is Morriel planning.

The Fellowship have the ability to completely free the waystone if it asked (or do they since it is of offworld origin? Presumably it could ask? Would/Could the F7 help it?). I wonder whether they have discussed this with the stone. Isn't it "insane"? We have seen that the F7 are capable of talking to crystals.

I wonder whether the waystone could be a "lessons learnt" for humanity, i.e. what not to do.

A mechanical route to space-faring seems to be blocked by the compact and if humans tried this , their destuction is guaranteed by F7.

Could an embodied human with the right skills go to Marak and rebuild their body without mechanical spacefaring technology? e.g. Ath Adepts. Arithon can move around Athera...why not planets (is this with Davien's help? Could Arithon learn to do this alone?)

I once wondered whether this series would "explode" into the stars suprising us in our expectations of what fantasy fiction is (e.g. Cycle of Fire ended with "space-faring ambitions")...but think we'll likely stay put on Athera and the worlds around the worlds End Gates...that's enough to be getting along with in the next 500 years. One step at a time. I'm still shocked that humanity seems to have "sat still" for 5000 years. I may be wrong?

The paravian paradigm is seen as superior by those whose can perceive the differences and judge for themselves. But how to convice the townborn? Presumably they "bought in" at the beginning of the 3rd age?

The loss of the great waystone wouldn't remove the oaths sworn on the Skyron during the last 500 years which must be *most* of the koriani living today, I guess.

   By Trys on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 05:12 am: Edit Post


Cleansing would have that effect on all initiates, from my pov, as it directly severs the link to the focus stone their oath and longevitiy is tied into.

In my opinion, this would only happen if the sister had been given longevity by way of her personal crystal. I don't think the holding of their oath through the major crystals would result in rapid aging were those major crystals cleared even if they had longevity bindings in place.


Elaira's stone is still tied to the Skyron focus, however it is serving willingly and by it's own choice. Whether her crystal is cleansed in salt water and effects her the same I wouldn't be able to say.

I think we can safely say that if she is very old (not sure but I don't think she is... books not to hand) and her crystal did get cleared that she would not suffer the same fate as the one on the ship as she now has Fellowship longevity instead of Koriani longevity.


As for the threat of mindless zombieism, The personal crystal (that's tied directly with the individual's being) is cleansed, however I think that the individual's consciousness is more ripped from them and their stone and stored in the focus.

Isn't Lirenda a sample of 'mindless' as in she can not act on her own recognizance? As to a 'ripped mind' being stored in the Great Waystone, I think those are just failed Primes? I can't remember anything to indicate that anyone else is being stored in there.


   By Clare Mee on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 08:40 am: Edit Post


You all make some interesting points.

I don’t think that if Lirenda or one of the other Koriani initiates were to free themselves that the prime would know. Not unless she looked for it anyway. I don’t think that it would occur to Moreil/Seledie to look.

There has certainly been precedent for initiates being able to keep certain knowledge concealed, for example when Arithon escaped from Jealot Lirenda being compromised was sufficient to protect Elaira. I think that Lirenda would have to have told on Elaira, not something she was going to do given she’d just snogged Arithon.

As for the longevity issue, I don’t think that Lirenda, or some other old Koriani would die of horrible old age if she freed herself from her oath of obedience.

As I understand it the longevity binding is tied to the personal crystal. Although I think that there was some involvement with the larger focus jewels, but I don’t think they remain tied to the larger jewels after the process is finished.

I’m not sure about that though, and I don’t have the book to hand to check – but I’m thinking of when Elaira was undergoing her longevity treatment.

Then again, she was sucked into a scrying with the Skyron focus though, so I might be completely wrong about this.

I’m not sure about Lirenda’s status Trys, I thought that she is just forced to obey; I don’t think her identity has been placed in a focus jewel though. Her identity seems to be fully in tact, but her free will is completely constricted

Just my thoughts anyway


   By motley on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 09:54 am: Edit Post

Elaira has longevity from the F7. If her crystal were cleared, she'd be fine. Lirenda, however, wouldn't. I think she's about 300?

About Morriel being 'sucked into the Waystone' there was that time when she experienced a rift - and was thinking about her two younger brothers - not sure if that was dicky memory, or her actually being beaten by the Waystone? Certainly, since then, she's been acting almost possessed.

As for Lysaer - Arithon showdown - what if, what if the image of Dakar where he sees the Paravian Unicorn about to peirce his chest, and Arithon is holding Alitheil aloft AND IT'S ALIGHT IN DEFENSE OF JUST CAUSE... what if he's sheilding Lysaer?

It's not the BROTHERS that are against each other, but the MISTWRAITH goading them to do so. I'm pretty sure Arithon will not succumb, and will furthermore, fight to have his brother cleansed.

Not only that, the horn is actually a direct link to Prime Vibration. It might mean that the Unicorn could effect a cure - perhaps by ITS own sacrifice...

And what of Arithon's abilities as Masterbard - which the F7 said could in fact name and heal the mistwraithe?

And what off the wraiths moving out of Marak - will they get there whilst all this is going on?

As for Elaira - no idea whatsoever. Just enjoying the ride. *grin*

   By Winter on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 12:56 pm: Edit Post

On what happened to the enchantress on the ship, her crystal wasn't just cleared but shattered. I imagine that clearing alone would have a lot of similar effects, but the shattering of the crystal must be worse. Lirenda actually had a horrified thought about not adding fire to the clearing ritual.

I imagine that clearing would release all bindings tied through the stone but shattering would cause a backlash of force too. And the backlash engendered by the Waystone would probably be devastating.

motley, I'm not sure if I see Arithon defending Lysaer physically against a unicorn. I think if the half-brothers were in that close proximity the curse would interfere. When Davien appeared in Lysaer's form, Arithon's efforts to master the curse left him helpless before him.

From what I understand about the Law of the Major Balance, Arithon can't really petition for Lysaer's redemption. Lysaer must do it himself. And he's already rejected Ath's Adepts, the F7 and the centaur spirit at Daon Ramon. While a living Paravian might be different, I suspect that Lysaer's stubborn flaws might continue to hold him back.

   By Auna on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 07:13 pm: Edit Post

I think Elaira will deal with Morriel, not Arithon. It's easy to overlook the personal growth she has been going through and think of her as a minor player, but I see her as every bit Arithon's equal, just not in the obvious ways.

I really hope Lirenda frees herself. I think she has the potential info from her interaction with Arithon when he sang to her personal crystal, but will she ever make that leap? She has a strong spirit even though she's suffered greatly and I think she will eventually turn her energies to working on the problem. I doubt she would ever ask for help from the F7, so it's up to her imo.

   By motley on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 04:39 am: Edit Post

Winter - I read that interaction with Davien in the library differently - not to say it's any more correct - but I do feel that Arithon had the finesse and presence of mind to burn away the curse's hold. I don't think we'll see Arithon revert to geas driven hate again even though the curse is still there.

I agree Auna, I suspect Elaria will deal with Morriel/Selidie - I think the crystals themselves will be 'in' on it on some level. I keep getting the feeling that the Waystone and Skyron are finding ways to be free from the abusive practice of the Koriani.