Archive through August 26, 2012

Janny Wurts Chat Area: Arc 4: Sword of the Canon: Destiny's Conflict: Speculation (Spoiler Rules Apply): Archive through August 26, 2012
   By Annette on Saturday, November 12, 2011 - 07:26 am: Edit Post

Spoiler, spoiler, well maybe.....

Look what appeared. :-)

We left Arithon on the north shore of Lithmarin, on his way to Rathain presumably, is he going to walk past Athili with nothing happening? Or perhaps Janny is leaving that encounter till later.


   By Sleo on Saturday, November 12, 2011 - 09:42 am: Edit Post

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LOL. Who knows? What are Daliana and Dakar going to do with Lysaer? What happened to the red haired boy? Will Elaira make it to Althain Tower? When the heck is Arithon going to remember everything? What the heck happened at that wedding? ARGH!!!

(Message edited by admin on November 12, 2011)


   By Annette on Saturday, November 12, 2011 - 10:12 am: Edit Post

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Well if Arithon is going to Rathain, maybe Lysaer is going to end up in Tysan. Dakar would be smart enough to try and keep Lysaer as far from Arithon as possible. Maybe Lysaer might wake up in a bad mood and still torch a few temples? Khadrien probably decided to go home.

(Message edited by admin on November 12, 2011)


   By Sleo on Saturday, November 12, 2011 - 10:25 am: Edit Post

Definitely they need to be as far apart as possible.

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Hopefully Lysaer will go to Tysan and take down the Light's obnoxious religion.


   By Annette on Sunday, November 13, 2011 - 04:09 am: Edit Post

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Actually using his elemental power to torch a few temples is more likely to either make the True Sect more popular, or start yet another Light based religion. But it is what Lysaer was going to try before being distracted, and it could provided some entertainment for us, seeing the True Sects fallen avatar show them a bit of true justice. And if Janny is going to go playing the heart strings again and having us weeping all over the place I would like to have some equally fun bits to make us laugh as well. Initiate's Trial had a nice balance of both, I would like to see that continue. Lysaer does not have to kill anyone, just lighten their workload (and perhaps what they are wearing) a bit and show his devoted priesthood what he really thinks of them. Instead of being sword of the canon, he should be the sword that takes to the canon with a vengeance. Wishful thinking I know, he is more likely to fall to that curse yet again and make the same mistakes, or worse ones.


   By Julie on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 11:31 am: Edit Post

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Well what is Selidie's last card??? Arithon will be burdoned again with the needs of others. Elaira has the the backing of the Beidar- no small matter-. Lysaer will continue his torturous path to redemption but with the unconditional love and loyalty of Daliana And a master initiate at his side.

My question is... does the Destiny of the title refer to Traithe's raven??

(Message edited by admin on November 14, 2011)


   By Trys on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 12:09 pm: Edit Post

Please use spoiler rules in this topic.


   By Sleo on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 12:12 pm: Edit Post

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That's an interesting idea, Julie. Where does it come from?


   By Julie on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 01:24 pm: Edit Post

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did I do that right? a bit techno challenged

Sleo- I remember reading in I think Peril's Gate something to effect of... the raven whose name is Destiny.. It stuck with me but I haven't read that book in quite a while.

We could of course ask our wordsmith!!!


   By Sleo on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 01:44 pm: Edit Post

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Hmm. I did a search of 'destiny' through Stormed Fortress and found it mentioned in relation to the Fellowship most often, and once to the Biedar. But not to the raven. Also in relation to the knife that Elaira is carrying.


   By Annette on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 02:06 pm: Edit Post

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The female Raven is Prophecy. Do not recall her earthly aspect that partners Traithe getting a name?

Knowing Janny the destiny in the title could refer to anything and everything. Lysaer fighting and losing his battle against destiny could be one.


   By Trys on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 03:26 pm: Edit Post

Julie, perfect. :-)


   By Annette on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 07:14 pm: Edit Post

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And the biggest conflict destined to happen is the compact being broken. Janny must have told us where just about every cave and underground hiding area is by now, presumably they and Alestron get to be of significance in the story soon, even if they are only used as a precaution. Arithon being executed could have dire results.


   By J Tal on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - 03:08 am: Edit Post

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Just a thought Dakar said that Arithon cannot die prematurely. What if Arithon does agree to be king then is executed. It could be a sacrifice to save Lysaer. Although in my opinion that would be a very sad end to a very enjoyable series :-)


   By Sleo on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - 09:10 am: Edit Post

Don't even think such things!

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No way is Arithon going to die!


   By Annette on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - 09:15 am: Edit Post

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Arithon dying will most likely be a sacrifice to save Lysaer, but not the end of the story. Arithon is not likely to be accepting any kingship before then either. Davien is looking for an alternative to the compact, Arithon is not going through all this just to be king of Rathain. And it is not likely that Davien lied to Dakar when he said these tempering experiences would enable Arithon to achieve his hearts desire. Arithon agreeing to be king of anything before the execution would not result in the Fellowship being reunited, since Davien would still refuse to co-operate.

Arithon's opinion on kingship has not changed, even without his memory, and getting his memory back is not going to improve Asandir's chances of getting Rathain a king. Arithon would seem more likely to accept kingship of Sithaer itself than the kingship of Rathain. Remains to be seen if dying changes Arithon's opinion on kingship, it is bound to change something.


   By Sleo on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - 10:22 am: Edit Post

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Why are you guys talking about Arithon dying????


   By J Tal on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - 02:20 pm: Edit Post

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I thought Dakar foretold his execution? Also he was willing to accept Kingship with the s'Brydon can't remember which book though but they thwarted him I believe or something along those lines.

I don't want him to die I would be extremely disappointed if he did and probably crying in to my cup of tea and pillow for months. I hope I am very far from the mark on this one it was just a thought.


   By Sleo on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - 02:25 pm: Edit Post

Yes, Dakar did have a prophecy about that, but it was one of the ones he remembered, and hence open to change.


   By J Tal on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - 02:32 pm: Edit Post

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Oh didn't realise that for some reason I thought whatever he saw happened I really do need to go and re-read again.


   By Annette on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - 02:36 pm: Edit Post

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You missed the hints Sleo? Ath's adept would not lie to try to change Lysaer's decisions. And Jieret's Sight is pretty trustworthy. The Biedar do not seem sure Arithon's strength will last the course of his fate, but Davien seems quiet sure Arithon will succeed. He needs a live Arithon to solve his problem. And the Black Rose Prophecy did indicate Davien would rejoin the fellowship. Also the very start of the series, the prologue in Curse of the Mistwraith indicated Arithon was around after the third age, they might have forgot some things by the seventh age, but they remembered Arithon. If the execution was the end of him they would not have remembered him so far in the future.

Now we have no proof when this is going to happen, could be either Destiny's Conflict, or Song of the Mysteries. But I lean towards it being in the next book. There could be a big jump in time between arcs, and Janny is hopefully going to solve at least a few conflicts before getting to the mysteries.


   By Trys on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - 03:02 pm: Edit Post

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It sounds like you guys are hinting at a discorporate Arithon. Elaira will not be happy if that happens.


   By J Tal on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - 03:26 pm: Edit Post

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Trys I was hinting towards a very dead as a door nail Arithon. :-( Discorporate would be better than dead for us readers kind of but yes poor Elaira. Mind you she has done very well without him for the last 250 years.


   By Sleo on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - 03:34 pm: Edit Post

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NO NO NO! I refuse to believe it! And if he dies I will stop reading!

And, Trys, you're right. Elaira will not be happy about a discorporate Arithon.

Someone's ALWAYS predicting Arithon's death. I suppose he will die one day, all of us do, but not until many things are resolved -- ie. return of the Paravians? Return of Ciladis? Demise of Selidie/Morriel? Fulfilment of Black Rose Prophecy in some way shape or form? Healing of Traithe? Defusing of Mistwraith? I could go on and on. I refuse to believe Arithon's death has anything to do with any of that.


   By Annette on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - 03:59 pm: Edit Post

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No, Arithon's heart's desire definitely involved having a physical body to enjoy life with Elaira, and raise their family of gifted children. Although I suppose having a physical body is not necessary to always continue that love. Besides I do not think Arithon could survive that long yet as a discorporate spirit, at least not a free one. Although his spirit tends to wander off at times, he has not yet managed to lose his body. And although Arithon had a transcendent initiation in Kewar, and tends to master most abilities, I am not sure he is ready for transcendent mastery. I doubt Davien wants Arithon to have any drakish entanglements, and setting up Kewar and his version of the fountain of youth seems to indicate he expects Arithon to stay mortal for a while. So I have no idea how that miracle is going to come about. Janny seems to have been a bit secretive about that.


   By Clansman on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - 04:01 pm: Edit Post

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Okay, just who started this red herring discussion about Arthon's death? You people are filling my inbox with inanities! :-)

There are two big, fat books left people! Despite all of Janny's characteristic twists and turns and plot flips that leave us gobsmacked on a regular basis, the one thing she won't do is kill off the two main characters before the story is finished. In Song of the Mysteries, I will be truly fearful for our dear Arithon, and even the much-maligned Lysaer (I still believe that he will somehow be redeemed, and Initiate's Trial has bolstered that belief), but I think we are good at least until the last book. The foundation is laid for Destiny's Conflict. A whole lot of stuff be comin' our way, says this Clansman!

The last book is at least three years away, with DC in between. So hold on with the much wailing and gnashing of teeth, and put away your sack cloth and ashes, 'cause our Master Bard ain't done yet.

I have eaten crow before, but I throw this gauntlet down with confidence. Anyone care to lay a wager? A gentleman's (and lady's) wager of course, in the spirit of fun, for the simple rights of saying "I was right, and you were wrong".


   By Sleo on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - 04:20 pm: Edit Post

I'm with you, Clansman!


   By Annette on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - 04:33 pm: Edit Post

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I am willing to lay a wager in the spirit of fun, Arithon manages to get executed by sword and fire before the story ends. And I still have another book to go before losing my first bet, Kerelie might yet win it for me. :-)

I will be happy if Janny manages to get Destiny's Conflict done within three years, I am not expecting to see it before 2013. Although some more updates on it's progress would add some fun to the waiting.


   By Annette on Wednesday, November 16, 2011 - 01:52 am: Edit Post

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And if Lysaer manages to loosen the True Sects grip on Tysan, I think Efflin and Kerelie should make a fresh start and move down to Shand when their year of service is up. Shand, especially Innish always seemed a nicer place to live than some of the more volatile, bloodthirsty, or religiously fanatical places we see in the books. And it would be nice to see how Innish is going, did any trace of Arithon's war of laughter against the Light survive?

And Kerelie would have a better chance at romance with a certain Masterbard if she does not have to worry about the True Sect wrecking the place looking for any unusual house guests.


   By Sleo on Wednesday, November 16, 2011 - 07:27 am: Edit Post

Annette, Kerelie is not going to have a romance with Arithon. If you recall, she hates strangers and never really warmed up to him. Arithon told Tarens what happened to her. I think she'd bore him to death! And I'll bet we've seen the last of her.


   By J Tal on Wednesday, November 16, 2011 - 02:30 pm: Edit Post

Not sure but I think I started goin on about Arithon's death, however I was thinking it could happen in the last book not the next one. I am hoping I am so far off the mark though.

Just wondered if anyone will say what has been your favourite book out of the series if you have one?


   By Annette on Wednesday, November 16, 2011 - 03:26 pm: Edit Post

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I am sort of expecting Arithon to die in the last book as well if Janny goes where I am thinking she will with these mysteries. But that would be a completely different experience, and Arithon would not quite be the same physical being as we had known, and we would know he was going to die before Janny got to it.

Not that we have not had plenty of advance warning with the execution, since we first heard of it in Fugitive Prince. Janny even gave us a preview of what it might be like with Fionn's experience, although Arithon's is likely to be a lot worse. The chance of s'Ilessid breaking his spirit does not bode well. There was also several hints Lysaer's crowning strike would not happen till he had the sworn loyalty of every city, or as the adept put it, every mortal enclave on the continent had fallen as victim to his cause. The True Sect already started on Havish, and it seems Selidie Prime is likely to be planning another upset to keep the Fellowship busy after the Summer solstice, what better distraction than trying to save Havish and it's new Queen. Selidie Prime seems to have also laid a trap for Elaira in Deal, so Havish seems set to still get plenty of attention in Destiny's Conflict.


I am not sure I could really name a favourite of the books so far, I liked them all so much, they were all equally as good.

(Message edited by admin on November 17, 2011)


   By Andrew Ginever on Wednesday, November 16, 2011 - 08:33 pm: Edit Post

Just a reminder that the spoiler rules apply to this topic and you should be adding spoilers to the start of your posts, especially if you're mentioning character names in the first sentence or possible future events.

Otherwise we're going to have an unhappy gryphon if he has to go back and keep adding them for you :-)


   By Julie on Thursday, November 17, 2011 - 11:28 am: Edit Post

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Annette:
thank you for correcting me about the Raven's name- yes Prophecy... not quite destiny!

Arithon (and Lysaer) will die- their natural lives were extended by Davien's fountain BUT neither is immortal. Also I do not think Arithon ever expressed a desire to raise a family of gifted children. He told Jieret that if he ever had children he wanted them raised, loved by their mother and protected by him.
His relationship with Elaira is truly holistic- physical, spiritual, and emotional- it will continue after the physical body is gone. I think she would be the one who wants a child. He does not want to burdon them with the trials of kingship.


   By Annette on Thursday, November 17, 2011 - 03:44 pm: Edit Post

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In Kewar, once Arithon finished the trial of conscience and reached the Chamber of Midway, the first room Arithon sent his probe into showed his hearts desire. This is what Davien was referring to later when he was talking to Dakar. Arithon never told Davien the wish of his heart, Kewar showed it. Davien believes these tempering experiences will allow Arithon to have that life with Elaira.

Also on immortality, do not be so sure about Arithon, there have been hints he is destined to be more than what he is currently. He might currently be mortal, but might not always be so. Janny has dropped a few hints. But even as a mortal Arithon is going to have a very, very long life if he proves Davien right. As Davien said, he expects Arithon to live out his life, but once the dust has settled and Arithon accepts his destiny, he can always go back through the Westgate for another drink from the fountain. His natural life could be extended for well over 500 years.

Arithon loves children as much as Elaira, but he would never burden any child of his with kingship. Against the odds Arithon has already achieved his hearts desire several times, he will find a way to have his life with Elaira. And their children would be raised in love, protected and free from royal obligations. We will just have to wait and see how he manages that miracle.


   By J Tal on Thursday, November 17, 2011 - 04:00 pm: Edit Post

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Wasn't the only reason Arithon did not want children was because of what happened to Fionn. He may well have children who survive and their free will want to be Kings or Queens. Arithon never wanted it because of what it did to his family. I think anyway.


   By Annette on Friday, November 18, 2011 - 02:39 am: Edit Post

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Arithon had an extreme aversion to kingship before he even set foot on Athera. So no it is nothing to do with what happened to Fionn. At Ithamon when they were battling the Mistwraith Arithon said he would die before giving the Fellowship even one chance of getting a heir. Arithon was willing to sacrifice himself, he was not willing to allow any of his children to suffer such a fate. Teylia's life path was claimed by the Biedar before she was even born, so Arithon's wishes were not compromised. And if the Biedar had not saved the day, Arithon would have died so still he would have stuck to his word.


   By J Tal on Friday, November 18, 2011 - 02:59 am: Edit Post

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He was only 18 there abouts when he told the fellowship that he was not going to give them a heir though. What I meant about Fionn was the reason why he didn't want children not about being King, ss Fionn was hunted down he could see what would become of his children under Lysaers cursed state. However if Lysaer gains redemption, the curse is lifted the Parivains (sorry spelt wrong) return and peace ensues who is to say what will happen (if he survives) he is after all about 270 years old people changed their mind :-)


   By Julie on Monday, November 21, 2011 - 12:59 pm: Edit Post

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As a parent and grandparent I would imagine Arithon and Elaira would want a lot of time together before children come on the scene (gifted or not)!!!!


   By Sleo on Monday, November 21, 2011 - 01:22 pm: Edit Post

LOL


   By Annette on Monday, November 21, 2011 - 03:18 pm: Edit Post

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Well Arithon and Elaira seem to have no trouble with abstinence, so if it takes a few more centuries to sort things out they should survive.

Once they do eventually get together I would think Elaira would be having lots of children if they are planning on reviving Athera's mysteries the most enjoyable way. Birth control seems not to work with a grand confluence. They both live very long lives they could end up with enough children that their descendants could populate a small kingdom. Perhaps Elaira will be making use of her sisterhood as a source of babysitters, they could do with increasing their mothering instincts.

And once a couple again they are always together, even when they are apart, so no need for time to themselves. I would have thought they would have had all eternity together, although the discussion Elaira had with the Eldest of the Biedar was a bit worrying.


   By Julie on Monday, November 21, 2011 - 10:16 pm: Edit Post

Arithon was given an extended life to 500 years, Elaira was enspelled to live as long as he does. I guess they would be around 325 years old now. In any event I never got that they had the intention of reviving Athera's mysteries. Arithon wants the Paravians to return but that does not depend on he and Elaira being a prolific breeding pair. We do not really know what his heart's true desires are- I am sure Elaira is part of that but maybe more in the sense of wholeness, balance, and beauty inherent in unconditional love which transcends the physical.


   By Annette on Tuesday, November 22, 2011 - 04:16 am: Edit Post

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Actually we do know what Arithon's heart's desire is it was shown in Kewar, Davien verified he could achieve it.



quote:

Desh-thiere's curse was a memory, all bloodshed behind him. He could abandon both crown and sword without guilt and reassume the pursuit of his music. Elaira's voice called him. Her open arms promised him peace, and the delights of unimpaired freedom. Together, they would build a bright future. Immersed in the rapture of her tender love, Arithon beheld a shared life made full. Together, they could study the grand confluence of the mysteries and raise a family of gifted children.
Peril's Gate





quote:

Given certain conditions, such developed sensitivity could subject you to pressures no human being should be asked to endure. You would react exactly as you did today, and bid Dharkaron Avenger's Five Horses take the hindmost. No power on Athera could sway your course. In violation of the Law of the Major Balance, you could only be killed, which sets the stinging thorn in the rose. To marry you with wisdom, you would have to be inflamed until you mastered your rebellion. The Fellowship would never cozen such risk. They can't. The brute conflict might shatter the compact.'

Arithon cut through the diversionary rhetoric. 'Then as Teir's'Ffalenn pressured to accept the high kingship, surely the explosion would be contained. I can't smash the world's order while burdened under crown duties. Your impressive list of my threatening tendencies ought to be kept neatly hobbled.'
Peril's Gate






quote:

'Arithon once told me the wish of his heart. Would you deny him the tempering
experience he needs to achieve his most cherished desire?'
Traitor's Knot




True this heart's desire could transcend the physical, they could both transcend literally (at least one is bound to eventually), the gifted children could even be all of humanity. I think Arithon would start on something a bit smaller though.

Whatever Arithon and Elaira are going to do they would have to resolve their problems and claim their destiny before the 500 years ran out. Selidie and her dark practices might yet shorten that time limit. The brothers drank from the fountain in 5637 and we left Athera in Initiate's Trial in 5923 so only 286 years have past. Plenty of time left if Arithon can avoid dying untimely and humanity can avoid breaking the compact and getting wiped out.

Teylia might have given a hint about untimely in chapter 1, or letting go might have nothing to do with what happens in the third age, but might be referring to something else. Janny never puts these things in for no reason, so it is bound to come up eventually.


   By Julie on Tuesday, November 22, 2011 - 01:14 pm: Edit Post

The key words are tender love, peace, and freedom. The mysteries are sourced in love and balance.They had a glimpse of that before being interrupted. The physical was only a part of it. He has a much deeper understanding of that than Elaira and although her heart is open, she has a lot of mental obstacles to overcome. Arithon is wedded to the land- I wonder if he could have wakened such a strong response if no longer crown prince or king.
So his heart's desires as I interpreted them were to live his life in freedom, safety, and beauty (which includes Elaira's love and his music).


   By Sleo on Tuesday, November 22, 2011 - 01:21 pm: Edit Post

AND children. I remember his image of himself and Elaira and children in one of the books.


   By Annette on Tuesday, November 22, 2011 - 02:23 pm: Edit Post

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Sleo could be thinking of Arithon's conversation with Jieret, who was so hopeful Arithon would start a family of his own one day. That is the same conversation J Tal was thinking about where Fionn's ill usage came up.


quote:

While in my right mind, I won't squander the s'Ffalenn lineage he spared to restore a crown presence in Rathain.' The released surge of hope blazed too blindingly bright. Jieret shut his eyes to stem his shocked tears of relief. 'Thank you for that promise. Might I ask, will you marry?' The plea was ripe folly, an impulse regretted as he braced for a scalding rebuttal. But the letdown came gentle from Arithon, this night; as ominous an admission, that this meeting between friends might very well be the last. 'Fionn Areth's ill usage at Jaelot should show you my reason why not.'





quote:

Unthinkable, the prospect that a blood s'Ffalenn heir might be taken and used as the pawn of political expedience. For as long as Desh-thiere's curse fed the fervor of townbred hatreds, no babe born of Torbrand's lineage could grow to adulthood in safety. Fionn Areth's chance likeness had proved beyond doubt: Arithon of Rathain had too many enemies seeking just such sure leverage to entrap him. 'Any child of yours could invoke Fellowship protection,' Jieret burst out as, again, his raw longing outpaced prudent thought. 'With his fate proscribed, as a virtual prisoner!' Since his nakedness canceled the grace of retreat, Arithon used rage to buy distance. 'I'll have no get of mine entangled by the dictates of kingship and destiny. Not for a land torn to arms by the Mistwaith's cursed war, not even for the needs of the Sorcerers' compact, to save what remains of the order the Betrayer's rebellion pulled down.'






quote:

'Ath Creator show mercy, Jieret!' Raked on the exposed nerve of his helplessness, Arithon gave back his very self. 'I'm a man, heart and mind, not a vessel begotten to reseed the Fellowship's tailor-made bloodline. If I ever breed heirs, they will grow up in love. Sons or daughters, I would see them raised by their mother, cherished and protected by my right arm, and the guaranteed trust of my sanity.'




All that was given to us in Peril's Gate Chapter VII. Threshold pg's 259-260 in the newest mass market paperback.


   By Sleo on Tuesday, November 22, 2011 - 03:04 pm: Edit Post

No, I don't believe that's what I'm thinking of. He had a moment of inner longing and his vision was of exactly that - he and Elaira raising sons/daughters. I am aware he's not wanting to have them if it means a burden to the Fellowship or anyone else.

Which all forebodes a wrathful response to Teylia's fate if he ever finds out about her. And she was the pawn of the Biedar, not the Fellowship.

And I don't think his awareness of their likely fate has any bearing on his wanting of children, while at the same time being determined not to have them. Just another unfulfilled desire, unless Davien's prophecy turns out to be right.


   By Sleo on Tuesday, November 22, 2011 - 03:05 pm: Edit Post

And, oh DRAT! I forgot the SPOILER THANG AGAIN!


   By Paige Madison on Tuesday, November 22, 2011 - 04:33 pm: Edit Post

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I personally wouldn't describe a 250 yr old woman who chose as a child to go with Koriani as a "pawn" of the Beidar. Everything I read seemed to indicate that she chose her fate willingly.


   By Sleo on Tuesday, November 22, 2011 - 05:13 pm: Edit Post

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Yes, she 'chose', but don't you remember at the end of Stormed Fortress, the conversation between the Mother Dark and Sethvir? And Mother Dark saying this one was hers? There's a bigger Biedar plan behind it all.


   By Trys on Tuesday, November 22, 2011 - 06:06 pm: Edit Post

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I agree that the Biedar have a bigger plan behind it all but Teylia made a choice of her freewill and I don't believe the Biedar would have forced her to them if she hadn't. My suspicion is that Mother Dark spoke as she did because Teylia was the expected right spirit to arrive at the right time and the right place to serve as needed.


   By Sleo on Tuesday, November 22, 2011 - 06:13 pm: Edit Post

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I think there is truth in what you say, but then why did she lay claim to Teylia? Are you saying she knew that Teylia would want to do what she did? But wouldn't the Fellowship want that as well?


   By Annette on Tuesday, November 22, 2011 - 07:48 pm: Edit Post

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The eldest of the Biedar might not be Mother Dark, although the way they seem to interact with the spirits of their ancestors I am starting to wonder if we could ever be sure who exactly any of the Biedar are, and that especially goes for Teylia who was not even born a Biedar. Teylia's spirit was of the Biedar ancestry I am suspicious it might have been someone we once knew. But then the Paravians themselves arouse my suspicions that way and I am starting to suspect it is related somehow. Suspicions aside, Mother Dark is older than the Biedar, probably older than creation itself, and likely enough something to do with Ath. Mother Dark was after all part of the Biedar myth of creation. Anyone ever works out the bit about the seed of the sun I am all ears.


Despite Teylia choosing to sacrifice her life for Arithon, I really do not think Arithon is going to see it in a reasonable light when he finds out. We know his thoughts on anyone sacrificing their lives for him, how much worse a daughter wasting her life as a pawn of the Koriani and then being killed instead of him. We already know how he felt about the child he never had a chance to even conceive (maybe that bit is what Sleo was thinking of), what would he think about those who knew he had fathered a child, never told him about her, and then allowed Selidie to get her hands on her at the tender age of three. Arithon was presumably wandering around for three years and had not been told he had a daughter, all those supposed friends and protectors who not only failed to protect Teylia but never gave Arithon a chance to protect her. Already Arithon had a tendency not to ask for Fellowship assistance, even when doing tasks they had set him to do, he would not rely on them. It is his nature to forgive everyone but himself it seems, so he will forgive them all, and most likely blame himself for what happened. And even if somehow the Fellowship are ever in a position to protect him from Prime Selidie or any other threat, Arithon will probably never again accept anything from the Sorcerer's unless it is his freedom. And we just know he will find out about Teylia, probably from Dakar which is why Dakar has no plans of ever seeing Arithon again. Arithon's plans when he remembers Dakar might be interesting, especially if Dakar is still with Lysaer.


   By Julie on Tuesday, November 22, 2011 - 09:29 pm: Edit Post

Spoiler Spoiler Spoiler


I think Arithon will be initially pissed at Dakar- but there is a bigger picture. We have no idea what happened at the wedding and I imagine Dakar did whatever he did ultimately to protect Arithon- so his intentions were good.
Also what child are you refering to? When he and Elaira were interrupted it was because Dakar had a true vision of Koriani manipulating to force a conception then take the child from Elaira. She was pissed because she felt they should have been given the chance to act on their own. BUT she had taken contraceptives. She did not know about the cipher to conceive placed by Seledie


   By Trys on Wednesday, November 23, 2011 - 07:33 am: Edit Post

SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER


quote:

I think there is truth in what you say, but then why did she lay claim to Teylia?


I think laying claim is overstating it. The words may sound like that but how can you lay claim to something that is already yours.


quote:

Are you saying she knew that Teylia would want to do what she did?


Exactly.


quote:

But wouldn't the Fellowship want that as well?


Perhaps. Who can know the mind of a sorcerer for they are subtle.


   By Sleo on Wednesday, November 23, 2011 - 09:51 am: Edit Post

SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER

@Annette - I know 'Mother Dark' is not the name of the elder I'm speaking of, but I admit to being too lazy to look it up. In the book, last chapter of SF - 'the revered who was 'Eldest'.'

@Trys - During the scene at Athir, she is watching from Sanpashir... she says 'Our part draws nigh as hope for the wandering spirit becomes reborn'. This seems to imply some sort of reincarnation, doesn't it?

So, on rereading that crucial scene at Athir, and the communication between the Eldest and Sethvir, it seems that at the conception of Dari s'Ahelas - story told in the short story 'Child of Prophecy.'

She was conceived in the sands of Sanpashir and apparently the Biedar handed her destiny to the Fellowship. And later, she says, 'This child shall come to spare her father, one day, dispossessed of his knowledge of her paternity.' There ensues a lengthy conversation between her and Sethvir, affirming that the child will have free will. And it seems she is born with the Biedar spirit, so she has some of their magic.

All very interesting.

re: Dakar - I think there is no doubt Dakar loves Arithon and he says at one point that Arithon wouldn't let him interfere with his capture. So I am unsure as to why he's so afraid to meet him again.


   By Trys on Wednesday, November 23, 2011 - 10:22 am: Edit Post

SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER

Sleo, yes that is an interesting turn of phrase. Perhaps 'wandering spirit' does imply reincarnation.


   By Annette on Wednesday, November 23, 2011 - 06:40 pm: Edit Post

SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER


I think Dakar is more worried about the consequences of Arithon finding out about Teylia than he is about Arithon blaming him for any past mistakes. Arithon has never blamed Dakar for anything. Dakar knows he is not perfect, he does not trust himself to be able to keep the secret from Arithon. I think it is guilt for a possible future mistake as much as Dakars feelings of guilt for the past that has him tied up in knots.

I believe it was hope that was reborn at Athir, Arithon had just wandered off for a bit, the same spirit returned to the same body. But you never know, perhaps hope does get reborn as an incarnate spirit, and it could have something to do with Arithon, but the only one born at Athir was Teylia. I think Janny will leave us guessing about Teylia till the last book. But it would not surprise me if reincarnation had something to do with it all. Definitely I am expecting a familiar spirit to be reincarnated as a Paravian at a completely different point in the story. And there were a few other Paravians involved in setting up the path for Mother Dark's chosen one that seemed suspicious, but maybe like the Biedar they are all in on the secret anyway. It was the Paravians who asked the Biedar to help with the conception of Dari, and the Paravians themselves were involved with the conception of Havish's heir who survived the rebellion, although we never heard any more about him. The old Earl's Court seems a significant place, certainly the Koriani like to set up shop in places where the flux is closest to the surface, there is no focus circle there so perhaps one of the previous tenants is the reason. The s'Gannley, they are a suspicious batch, and not just because of the Paravian meaning of their name. How were there Princes of Camris before the royal lines were selected? Janny gave us a fair bit of background on that lineage, why did Iamine s'Gannley refuse to found Tysan's royal lineage, had one of those many prophecies predicted something else, had the Paravians said something to her, or did she just know it was the right thing to do?

And then there is the seemingly innocent bit in Initiate's Trial where Sethvir is inspecting the flask belonging to the stopper he repairs.Janny has me so suspicious now, I will look at anything and try and make something of it. Janny likes sneaking in clues in strange places, and indigo, emerald and red are the colours of Tysan, Rathain and Havish, what each colour was could have been significant as well. If the glaze was indigo the flaw in the stopper would have been indigo presumably, and Sethvir was talking about Lysaer being compromised at the same time he was healing the stopper. Five royal lines were matched to the land, but we already know Tysan had a possible alternate royal lineage, what if Melhalla also had another royal line. The lost s'Dieneval lineage that both Lysaer and Arithon carry. The gift for prophecy that lineage carried could have been another Biedar addition, and we have a seemingly unimportant tale of a Princess of Falmuir, Falmuir was in Melhalla but the tale does not seem to relate to the lost s'Ellestrion royal line. The Princess in question seems to have known what was going to happen, perhaps she was a prophet? Both Arithon and Lysaer also carry Shand's royal lineage so the mix of Arithon, Lysaer (or a child of his) and a heir from Havish could cover all 5 kingdoms. Arithon has already been involved with defence of both Shand and Melhalla, he visited the kings grove in Selkwood, Atwood has a Queens grove maybe Arithon will visit there eventually. Or maybe Elaira will?


   By Sleo on Wednesday, November 23, 2011 - 06:49 pm: Edit Post

SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER

The 'wandering spirit' was for the babe being conceived. It was not for Arithon.


   By Annette on Wednesday, November 23, 2011 - 08:15 pm: Edit Post

SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER

Pretty sure it was Arithons spirit that wandered off and they needed to get back before he died. This was after all the second death that the Eldest had predicted. Even Dakar said Arithon was spirit wandering.


quote:

'Your beloved is spirit wandering. If he rides the winds, that does not mean he's in fatal danger just yet. The effect of the Five Centuries Fountain should balance his health and grant time to seek wiser means than your order's forced mastery to waken him.'




quote:

'Then Sethvir steered you to this ugly course to restore my love's scattered awareness?'




quote:

Our part draws nigh as hope for the wandering spirit becomes reborn. She who speaks for his heart must not fail! Or the gifted talent her beloved bears will not waken again in this world.


His heart, and it was Arithon they were all trying to save. They were not talking about Teylia, Teylia was never lost and she seemed to have been born for the sole purpose of saving Arithon later.


quote:

Realigned under the bliss of grand confluence, anchored into the land by his crown tie of attunement, Arithon's strayed spirit became annealed back into his forgotten flesh.




And being reborn yet again, something must have changed, we just never got to see what. The stamp of encounter left by Athera's deep mysteries, was not overly imformative. Arithon had encountered Athera's mysteries before. We never saw much of Arithon to see any changes, but if he asked Elaira to marry him the stars must have been very informative about something.


   By Sleo on Saturday, November 26, 2011 - 11:40 am: Edit Post

Alas, sigh. I fear your are right, Annette! Later in the text it clarifies that saving her father is her destiny and that she will have free will throughout. It makes the point that 'free will' is the difference between the Biedar and the Koriathain.


   By Hunter on Wednesday, November 30, 2011 - 08:56 pm: Edit Post

SPOILER??

I wonder whether Arithon will wield the Biedar knife in this book or the final book? And will the Biedar knife be more powerful than Alithiel?


   By Sleo on Wednesday, November 30, 2011 - 09:06 pm: Edit Post

Interesting question!


   By Annette on Thursday, December 01, 2011 - 06:32 am: Edit Post

Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler.

Depends on what you think of as powerful. Alithiel can affect many people at the same time, especially if her power is channelled through Arithon. The knife can only protect one person, the knife itself seems to have no effects on the necromancers when the etheric cords are cut. If it only protects against necromancy is it as powerful as Alithiel?

In Arithon's case though the knife might have another purpose, maybe he uses it twice. Although I would guess if he is going to be freeing anyone with it, especially if it is himself it would be in Destiny's Conflict. Maybe if any significant changes are going to occur by using it to swear a blood oath, Arithon would wait till later. Maybe we could measure the power of each artifact by how it affects Arithon when he uses it.


I re-read the flask section and noticed something strange. Janny often uses phrases to give us hints about other things we might not yet be aware of. This could be that or could just be an over active imagination. It concerns the scarlet birds on the flask. If the flask is an obtuse hint at something, the colours might not necessarily refer to royal colours or kingdom colours. Janny might have thrown a few other hints in there I did not see before. Just before Dakar first appears Asandir makes the comment ‘My unfinished business come flocking to roost.’ Dakar has been compared to many things in the books, but never a bird before, or at least I do not remember it ever happening, my favourite was always moon-calf. Asandir's comment did seem a bit strange. Later Asandir baits Dakar by asking for a tranced prophecy concerning the Prime Matriarch's plans, and we are told once the rebuke would have flustered Dakar scarlet. OK that is really stretching it, but having already started thinking about birds the word scarlet really jumped out at me. Yes I do have an over active imagination, but it could be something.

Dakar's clothing started out sort of grotty grey due to neglect, then he sort of settled on russet the only times he dressed up. I have not gone back yet to look at what he usually wore. Now he seems to have settled on brown. Brown is a mixture of red and black/grey, very vague I know, but maybe Dakar is slowly changing his 'frequency', maybe he could end up red? Or maybe he just takes better care of his clothes these days. As a chakra colour red represents physical security, that does seem to be something Dakar would be aiming for.

The red, blue and green are primary colours in this case the trio are the primary colours for emitted light, such as from the sun. When combined they would form white light. You never know with Janny, she never seems to just put things in there for no reason. Maybe it is just an innocent flask in need of repair, maybe it is a hint at something completely different. And maybe like a lot of Janny's hints you can interpret it multiple ways, or get it completely wrong.


   By Hunter on Thursday, December 01, 2011 - 06:57 am: Edit Post

Spoilers.. spoilers..

I've just re-read The Sundering Star from Sandtiger's excellent collection of stories - "Under cover of darkness". I did so to recall what Jessian was up to - the same Jessian referred to be the Biedar crone when Elaira traipses down to Sanpashir to consult with her.

As much as anything is clear in this series, that Arithon will use the Biedar knife on Morriel (in some way) is almost certain. From the Sundering Star, the Biedar make it clear that they wish to reclaim their knowledge from misuse - exactly the same misuse that the Koriani include as now standard practice. I believe that the Koriani rituals form one of the two remaining manifestations of necromancy to be reclaimed (still thinking on the third).

So.. if Arithon uses the Biedar knife to reclaim the Biedar's proscribed knowledge, that would certainly end Morriel's possession of Selidie. Koriani longevity spells are based on that same knowledge, so all of the Koriani with forced longevity would probably suffer the same fate as the Koriani looking after Caolle when he grounded her crystal in salt water. It is then rather convenient, no?, that Elaira's longevity is Fellowship aligned rather than Koriani forced. The Koriani as we know them would cease to exist as all ranking seniors are well past their natural lifespans and would cease to exist. There are too many references to Arithon being Mother Dark's chosen and him breaking the Koriani line of succession to not end up with this happening somehow.

I wonder whether the third line if necromancy is the enslavement of the Koriani crystals and whether Arithon might somehow use the Biedar knife on the Great Waystone and Skyron crystals to free the enslaved spirits.

Having thence reclaimed their knowledge and being able to move between worlds of their own volition, one wonders if the Biedar will then decide to leave Athera?

The three short stories Janny has written set in the Wars of Light and Shadow are clearly required reading for context and further information.


   By Sleo on Thursday, December 01, 2011 - 09:10 am: Edit Post

Oh my goodness, you both are giving me much food for thought.

SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER

Hunter, the idea of all the souls trapped by the crystals is quite intriguing as the third form of necromancy. Of course the Waystone is not the only crystal so used. The Skyron crystal also has many.

Of course, the possession of Selidie is one form of necromancy. Is the binding use of Koriani rituals the third you mean? That would include the trapping by the crystals. The possession of Selidie was not strictly a form of Koriani practice, as indicated by the disapproval of the other high ranking senior at the time.


   By Annette on Thursday, December 01, 2011 - 10:44 am: Edit Post

Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler.

Just as the sorcerers do not condone murder, neither would Arithon, wiping out necromancy and the knowledge relating to it (or passing it on to whoever is meant to have it) seems unlikely to drop dead every red banded witch on Athera. They are more likely to be the victims rather than the necromancers. Their longevity is tied to crystal, while unnatural if Morriel and necromancy vanished from Athera it probably would have no effect on the bindings. The law of the major balance is hardly something you can enforce against the will of another. Arithon would want to free them from the threat of necromancy, not kill them.

I am not sure, but I would suspect the Biedar knife can only be used to free the living from necromancy. Arithon would not need it anyway to redeem spirits, or clear a crystal. And if selective clearing of a crystal was needed did we not go though that with Lirenda's crystal and how it was to be cleared of a certain tune. Arithon could probably do it with his music.


The Biedar can already travel between worlds if they want to, their knowledge was stolen long before they arrived on Athera. And just because someone stole that knowledge does not mean the Biedar no longer have it. You hack into a computer system and copy all their records it does no harm to the original records. The knowledge was stolen from their minds! Presumably everything is set right the Biedar would leave.

Since the Biedar and Athera have their life web connecting all life, necromancers are related if doing the opposite, maybe we should look for webs? Morriel is the stalking spider on her strung webs. Who else has webs out? Janny always puts clues in there some where.


quote:

If cornered, the temple priesthood will shed blood to secure the web that feeds its survival!’




Just how do these religious zealots get so much power?


   By Clansman on Thursday, December 01, 2011 - 11:21 am: Edit Post

Quote: Just how do these religious zealots get so much power?

The same way that they have always done: lie, cheat and steal. The Light Religion reflects very closely the medieval Church prior to the Protestant Reformation. The Church at the height of its earthly power in the 12th and 13th century owned outright 1/3 of the land in Europe. It used the threat of excommunication on any king that stepped "out of line" (any vassals of an excommunicated king were freed of their oaths, and thus excommunication was de facto Church-sponsored rebellion). There were the abuses of simony (holding multiple church offices (and not doing the work that came with them), indulgences (buying your way into heaven?!?), oppression of the masses (the Church had millions of serfs (i.e. slaves)), not to mention church-sponsored violence (Crusades, Inquisition, etc.).

Now, harken back to the things that Christ actually did and said, at least according to what Matthew, Mark, Luke and John have to say about it, and the Church of the middle ages had no resemblance to what Christ was talking about, or even the church described in Luke's second book, the Book of Acts. The Church of Pope Innocent III (what an oxymoron of a name that is!) was a corrupt and evil behemoth that actively oppressed Europe in order to sustain itself. Watch the movie of Umberto Eco's 'The Name of the Rose' (the book is much better) and look at the scene where the church prelates are in the carriage, wearing their finery, and being pushed up the hill by a bunch of starving and filthy peasants. The juxtaposition of those images is profound.

Examples of the same can be found in most, if not all, other faiths, as human greed and lust for power creeps in to corrupt the moral principles of a faith's founder.

Add to the human history of the abuse of organized religion the fact that Lysaer was a war-mongering, hate-filled and curse-ridden avatar (no "turn other cheek", "the meek shall inherit the earth", "walk the extra mile" or "feed my sheep" kind of guy is Lysaer), the Religion of Light started off as being rotten at its core.

A major and obvious theme of 'The Wars of Light and Shadow' is the abuses of organized religion, which so often ignores the tenets which it purports to uphold (truth, justice, mercy, and protection of the weak and innocent). Another good fantasy series displaying this theme is Paul Kearney's 'Monarchies of God', that shows the difference between honest priests and the dishonest church of which they are a part, and how far that church has departed from its founder's teachings.

As a major theme of human history, regardless of one's faith, or lack thereof, the corruption of organized religion is always deserving of examination.


   By Annette on Thursday, December 01, 2011 - 05:51 pm: Edit Post

Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler.


Not political or religious power, the power to rip a persons mind open and see all their secrets, the power to sniff out where anyone with any natural talent might be hiding. None of our local religions ever had any power like that. Lysaer recruited natural talent for his priesthood, but these examiners and diviners seem to be powered by more than just natural talent. Certainly their power comes from no god, they are not wise to the mysteries, and they have no training like the mages or the koriani, so how did they get so powerful? Who's dark power corrupted the Lights religion this time? Maybe the Koriani are not the only ones using the True Sect's priesthood to accomplish their own ends. Janny never really looked that close at how they work, but Tarens was terrified to face questioning in Kelsing and probably Erdane is even worse. Now they have Etarra they will probably waste no time moving over there as well. We always suspected there was something rotten hiding in Erdane, in Destiny's Conflict we should get to see what it was.

Now if we are going to get all interested in comparisons, better to go for Christ himself. Arithon already calmed several different types of storms and managed to walk on water, true he has not raised any dead, but Jieret and Tarens were getting close. He has redeemed entire planets of lost spirits. Arithon has a mountain to climb yet, and Janny might throw in healing of the blind along the way. We get a resurrection what are we going to make of Arithon? He makes no claims to divinity and is not about to start any religion and yet the Biedar did claim he was God touched. Is Arithon more than just Elaira's beloved? We already know he is Mother Dark's chosen one, was he just chosen to end necromancy, to be a guiding light for humanity? Or is there a bit more to it. One brother looks the part, all golden and shiny bright, one acts the part all compassionate and wise to the mysteries. Creation did start in the dark particularly in Athera's universe, if Arithon is the light to shine in the dark, should we be wondering where he is headed? Kewar did give some hints, there were 5 options, Athliera was denied him, and one Arithon assumed had been created with a Paravian in mind, what if it had been designed for Arithon? And why is it everything in Ath's creation also seems to have the Name for everything else ever created, Ath is everything but everything had to start somehow, how does everything end up in the void before creation before it is even created? And how does it get created in the first place, even with all the Names. Did Ath create a template for creation in this Naming business? Song of the Mysteries might explain a bit about that side of things.

We get to the end of Destiny's Conflict those ideas might not seem quite so far fetched, although I have my doubts Janny would have explained much about the Mysteries, better to keep them a mystery for the last book.


   By Julie on Tuesday, December 06, 2011 - 08:34 pm: Edit Post

While our earth's religions did not have the "power to rip open someone's mind" they did have all sorts of torture which terrorized the masses.

In modern times torture and terror are still very effective means to control others.


   By Hunter on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 06:16 am: Edit Post

Religions have always had an ability to find those who are perceived or deemed to not follow the "true path". Inquisitions anyone? Plenty of contemporary examples.

"Who's dark power corrupted the Lights religion this time?" I would suggest you're looking for a conspiracy that doesn't exist - basic human greed, a desire for power over others and your standard bigotry and ignorance are all over the True Sect in spades. Nothing too mysterious about how this all got "corrupted" as you say - I would suggest that it would be an aberration of human nature for the "True Sect" to have ended up as anything other than they are.


   By Annette on Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 03:51 pm: Edit Post

Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler.


Athera never had any religion before Lysaer started his false one. There had never been any priests or churches, Ath's adepts never went in search of recruits, they had no priesthood. Mankind had lived for over 5000 years on Athera without such things and they had the Paravians as such a shining example of Ath's love, why would Athera be following our example? Lysaer first got the idea of passing himself of as divinity incarnate after his defeat at Vastmark(5647) During Fugitive Prince they were still in the setting up phase(5653) their false religion was not that wide spread. The Light's religion lost its High Priest and and some senior acolytes with the clean out of the Kralovir in 5671, and Arithon certainly made fools of the priest in Shand and Etarra during that time. Arithon was imprisoned in 5674 and by 5683 Lysaer had decided he had enough of divinity and his own false religion and thrown them out of Etarra, denying their claims on him. The more militant True Sect branch of the Light's religion was formed because of that schism. So Lysaer's false religion had 36 years at most to worship him, and less than that in most places. Then he turns around and disowns his own religion. Do not recall any earth religions having to survive that, let alone a dragon, laughter and the fellowship disbanding the Alliance and packing everyone off home. While the Light's faith might have spread over 4 maybe 5 kingdoms the True Sect branch is confined to Tysan. If Lysaers false religion was always going that way, why did it only evolve like that in Tysan? Why is it Erdane, who were always so paranoid about letting any initiate talent within their walls is now hosting a priesthood powered by the very thing they seemed to fear.


Are you sure I am looking for a conspiracy that does not exist? There could not be some other reason why Erdane embraced Lysaer's false religion with such enthusiasm? Has the True Sect been corrupted from its initial purpose? Did the basics of a true religion ever have anything to do with why Lysaer even started the false religion in the first place?


   By Julie on Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 05:28 pm: Edit Post

While there may not have been a "religion" per se on Athera there was certainly spirituality and rituals. There were creation myths, supreme beings (Ath, Dharkaron) and an afterlife. Once the Paravians left, only the Clan born had any connection the mysteries, and that was only reinforced through diligence.
There is mention of Solstice holidays among the towns but without the integration of Paravians, clan, or Fellowship guidence.

Humans have an inate spiritual need. Something happened in our own history several thousand years ago which fostered a move from earth based localized religion to the salvation tied religions of monotheism, Budhism etc. It is easy to sell fear- the Light stepped into the void promising protection and salvation. The sword and eventual mind probes keep the population in check.

I do not think Lysaer wanted to be worshipped, he needed to attract the multitudes to his (curse driven) cause. His self proclaimed divine origins were the neccessary opposite of Arithon's supposed evil ones. He was disgusted by the transformation of his personal talent pool. The True Sect seems to be the male version of the Koriani (who we know were instrumental in guiding their training.


   By Annette on Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 08:49 pm: Edit Post

Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler.

I somehow doubt the Koriani would ever willingly share their initiate knowledge with even one male, let alone a whole priesthood. Do we have any reason to think they would have? The Koriani use them when it is convenient, there might be an alliance brought on by common interests occasionally. Yes the True Sect seem to be a male version of the Koriani, and what nasty little secrets do we know of the Koriani? There could be a bit more in common than just the desire to gain power. Erdane's archives were not lost in the Rebellion, no telling what dark secrets might have been hiding in Erdane's vault. Janny left a trail of clues in the books.

There is spirituality on Athera, till the mistwraith showed up there was even a direct connection to Ath available with the Paravians, and even with them absent there was always Ath's adepts to set the example. All Athera used to celebrate the solstice and equinox festivals. The Paravians also interacted with Athera at that time to channel Athera's earthforces. Some might have noticed those times are also favoured for and major workings involving magecraft. There would be a practical reason why the flux tides and magcraft were stronger at those times, it would have nothing to do with religion. They all knew who Ath was that knowledge was not only known by the clans and Paravians. There was no organised religion, no priests, no hierarchy in Ath's order. They had faith in Ath, just like they had faith the sun was going to rise the next day, they did not need an organised religion to have that faith. Yes Lysaer found it easy to blind the sheep and lead them astray, because of that. But once Lysaer withdrew his claim, why did Tysan not settle down like every where else?

Lysaer created his false religion for the sole purpose of destroying Arithon, he could not face the cost of blood a feud, so turned it into a holy war. Sorcery, clans and Ath's adepts are merely things he felt could give support to Arithon, so they were also targeted.

There was another faction who was interested in using religion to gain what they wanted.


quote:

"The faction I speak for will back Lysaer's cause. In secret, we've labored to abolish the compact since the overthrow of the last high kings. Those of our heirs who incline toward religion will scarcely care which name they invoke when they mouth their prayers to a deity."



   By Julie on Thursday, December 15, 2011 - 05:42 pm: Edit Post

Where was this quote from? It is basically saying that the underlying motivation for this faction has nothing to do with religious conviction, but some will use a deity for justification. We have already provided a fairly good list of examples in this discussion. I will add one more- the Spanish monarchy enlisted the sanction of Pope Alexander to claim the New World, in exchange the Catholic CHurch was guarenteed riches. THe pope gave the Spanish his OK under the extremely thin excuse that Christianity was being brought to the "savages".


   By Annette on Thursday, December 15, 2011 - 10:44 pm: Edit Post

Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler.

The quote is from Fugitive Prince (pg 250 in the newest Mass Market paperback) the speaker is Lord Koshlin, Erdane's Minister of Trade. While the conflict might have everything to do with spirit, religion is only a smokescreen, readers would do better to look at what is in the books rather than comparing the True Sect to earth religions. While Davien was stirring up trouble in Havish it seems something else might have been stirring in Erdane, both factions want the compact broken. Why was Enithen Tuer living in Erdane? The place hardly seemed a safe place for an ex-Koriani to be, even if she was protected by the Biedar knife, was she there keeping an eye on something while waiting for Sulfin Evend? Several mentions were made about necromancers meeting near or travelling from Erdane, Ath's hostel near Erdane was abandoned by the time the story starts. None of the Grey Kralovir seemed to be at Erdane, so what was?

There seems to be ties to necromancy in both Hanshire and Erdane. Hanshire is home to a nest of Koriani, what was Erdane home to before the True Sect took up residence? Was it just coincidence that the True Sect started up there? Lysaer disowned them, wanted nothing to do with their canon, why? Rather than enslave the clan born the True Sect just wants to wipe them out, they have closed off Tysan and isolated their victims, if their reason for doing what they are doing was just religion, why did they not spread out and try and convert the traditionalists. Lysaer would try and stop them in Rathain, Crown rule would stop them in Havish, Melhalla and Shand seem unprotected and the Lights religion had already spread to those kingdoms. If the True Sect was only interested in converts, why go for the armed and defended Havish when there were two other kingdoms ripe for conversion. Havish were not savages, and despite the attitude of the True Sect what threat would the clans and mage gifted in another kingdom be to their religion?
Why is the True Sect frightened of talent, when it is built on such talent itself? Why did Koshlin influence Lysaer's original priesthood, what threat were they to Erdane?


quote:

'You never wondered why Hanshire's mayors don't fraternize with Erdane's council? Or why High Priest Cerebeld and his acolytes are decidedly unloved by the secret factions who pressure town politics? Their flow of gold helps proliferate the leagues of headhunters, and their sworn purpose is to hound the old blood to extinction.'
Peril's Gate pg 386 newest Mass Market pb




Which leads back to Hunter and Sleo's speculation about where another sect of necromancy might be. We are not looking for two forms of necromancy but two other sects (or maybe three). If the Koriani are one, we are looking for a different group, not the same groups practising a different form of necromancy. Either that or the Koriani are just more victims of something started in Hanshire. But Janny gave no hints about there being three, the Biedar Eldest and Asandir said two offshoots still existed and we already know the Koriani are dabling in necromancy. Janny gave us more information about Erdane in Initiate's Trial.


quote:

Dangerous history had roots in that place, where the mayor’s council once had been corrupted by necromancers. Though the cult was defunct, the shady influence still tainted the town’s entrenched factions




And the glossary entry for Erdane spells it out as well. Coincidently, Tarens killed the True Sects diviner with an iron poker, an iron blade being the ritual method of disposing of the shell of a necromancer. And there was Dakars comment to the True Sect Examiner during the trial at Ettara.


quote:

Not a splinter of bone, or a plucked wisp of hair tied in cloth and infused as a fetch to bend anyone to my purpose.




We know what the fetch was, but why mention a splinter of bone? The Koriani do not seem to use bone to control others, is the True Sect perhaps pimping for more than one sect. When the Grey Kralovir were destroyed, white mage fire ensured nothing was left of the corpses, not even a splinter of bone. Seems even such a small thing could be dangerious. Perhaps something was left over from the original sect that was at Erdane? Or maybe the group based in Erdane just keep these little talismans to use when they need them, much like the Koriani do.


   By Brian R on Wednesday, December 21, 2011 - 05:40 pm: Edit Post

The speculations are fascinating BUT are they relevant. Janny could be laughing her head off. She KNOWS what will happen and as she has said

"In many ways, life by itself has been complicated, and the next book is an arc ending LIKE NO OTHER. Expect it will blow Stormed Fortress out of the water."

One set AND two - are going to totally blow your mind. Even more than the opener of Initiate's Trial, but ;X - can't remove the authorial duct tape, the spoilers, even hinted, would be extreme.

Brace yourselves, reinforce your ceiling, and walls, in case you bounce off them rather hard.

Because You Have No Idea...!!!


   By Annette on Wednesday, December 21, 2011 - 07:29 pm: Edit Post

Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler.

Well I am sort of expecting Destiny's Conflict to have Arithon having a very close (and hopefully informative, although probably not knowing Janny) encounter with Athili. Assuming he does actually go to Rathain straight away, I do not see how he could walk past it without anything happening. then there will be his meeting with Rathain's clans, which will certainly give us lots of interesting info about both the present and past. And we are all waiting with baited breath to see what happens when Lysaer wakes up, Dakar cannot keep him asleep for ever. And with summer fast coming up there will be Selidie Prime's little surprise to add excitement to the early chapters. And the trap waiting in Deal presumably for Elaira. Another coronation in Havish. Then there is Davien on the loose with no keeper, who knows what he will get up to and whether or not he is going to be obeying an oath that binds the rest of the Fellowship to inactivity where Arithon's fate is concerned.

So the opening chapters could cover interesting entanglements with just about all the main participants in the many conflicts. Maybe no dragons to start with, but there is still the mystery of what happened on the other side of Northgate. Or maybe something could interrupt Seshkrozchiel's plans for a nap.


   By Janny Wurts on Thursday, April 05, 2012 - 09:42 am: Edit Post

Incredible how quiet things have been, lately.

Let's kick over the complacency....how many HUGE hints are buried in former volumes that will find culmination in Arc IV?

Yup. They are there. In plain sight. M A J O R in your eye kind of statements.

And ready for visceral development in Destiny's Conflict.

Care to speculate?


   By Annette on Thursday, April 05, 2012 - 05:52 pm: Edit Post

Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler.


I think what I am speculating on would ruin it, but just finding out how Arithon gets to survive that execution might give me my answer, or at least a PRIME clue. You are devious and the answer is never that obvious, despite all the hints in Initiate's Trial there has to be an unexpected twist to this mystery. The suspense is killing me, especially as I might never get to read the final book. I die before finding out the answer expect to be haunted by a very cheeky ghost who likes to read WoLaS books.


   By Hellcat on Friday, April 06, 2012 - 08:43 am: Edit Post

Something I have been wondering for a a while now,

Spoilers
etc

The ruins at Mainmere, wait for "The tread of the one who would come in the hour of Athera's greatest peril" (mis-quote I'm sure.) Which the free wraiths dealt with, what is that peril?

My guess; Its the F7.


   By Annette on Friday, April 06, 2012 - 06:19 pm: Edit Post

Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler.



I always thought humanity itself was Athera's greatest peril, as well as her greatest hope for the future. It was inevitable they were going to break the compact. I expect the F7 to follow form and sit it out, they will lose hope, and when hope returns they are not going to be going up against the dragons to save humanity. I believe the Fellowship have known Arithon's Destiny all the time, Sethvir's comment about fatal glory just about confirms it. So they lose Arithon, they will think there is no chance of saving things, so no reason to destroy humanity. The dragons might think otherwise.

I expect that conflict to be humanity vs the dragons, unless Dharkaron is going to make an appearance as well. Either way humanity seems out powered, so I expect them to hide to survive. Janny always seemed to have mentioned bolt holes around the place that would be safe for that.


   By Annette on Friday, April 06, 2012 - 09:54 pm: Edit Post

So there must be quite a pause in the action somewhere if a new city is going to be built in Daon Ramon barrens.


quote:

Sunwheel became sun, sinking red to a horizon of weather-stripped hills: Daon Ramon. Before the light palled into featureless night, he beheld a new city embedded in tangled black canes of old briar. Somewhere, somebody sobbed in the throes of a gut-wrenching agony...




Maybe the new city does not last very long.

quote:

A city, sheeted in fire and burning; a child, dead in the dust.





Perhaps this time Arithon will not need the running shoes on for the entire book.


   By Gary on Tuesday, April 10, 2012 - 06:30 am: Edit Post

Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler.

I think some of this speculation may be crazy, but that's part of the fun?


Speculation: there is still one more huge revelation to come with Hanshire and the Koriathain.

So far, IIRC, we have seen that Hanshire is "cozy" with the Order. When Lysaer/Sulfin passed through in "Traitor's Knot", we saw a lot of Koriani seniors with the town council. They have been getting grants of land/etc. from the local town for many generations. And the s'Gannley offshoot is of interest to the Order as well.

But, none of that really explains Elaira's thought when she met Sulfin Evend in Stormed Fortress:


quote:

The order's wandering independents were a tough breed. They did not visit Hanshire. If he asked, she would cite him the reason.





Speculation #2: How much land/buildings do the Koriani have in Hanshire? And is it mainly used as farming/living quarters? Or also for something else?
Speculation #3: How might this tie in with Hanshire initially being against the return of royal rule in Tysan (which, incidentally, might make it harder to violate the Compact in that territory)? This is reaching, Koriani don't need much of a reason to dislike something that strengthens the Compact.

From Sulfin Evend's trip to Hanshire in "Traitor's Knot":

quote:

The sealed bargain with Hanshire's ruling council is renewed with each generation. Before the obligation demanded of me, the sisterhood has asked no more than buildings, or land, or sometimes a tithing of labour. The obligation began in the years of the uprising, when our mayors asked service, and provided a safe haven for enchantresses who were in flight, or left homeless at large on the country-side.



   By Paige Madison on Tuesday, April 10, 2012 - 02:32 pm: Edit Post

Annette, regarding your quotes above, can you post the book, chapter, and subchapter? I would like to read the whole thing in context. I've just completed my third or fourth reread and those quotes don't ring a bell at all.

Spoilers below:







My speculation is three fold. First, there is a determined effort by the Fellowship Sorcerers to avoid a meetup between Arithon and Seshkrozchiel the dragon. I've got a feeling that these two are going to cross paths before all is said and done and the results will throw some wrenches into everybody's plans at the very least if not change the future direction of Athera entirely.

Secondly, there are some fascinating references in Book 1 right after they seal the Mistwraith. I've got a feeling that the Miswraith will cause more trouble before it's dealt with for good.

Third, I foresee major developments with Seldie Prime/Arithon/Elaira with the anti-necromancy that Elaira carries to give to Arithon. I also think that Elaira may not be trained formally, but she has become a lot more powerful than she realizes and may end up running a new, reformed Koriani order.


   By Annette on Tuesday, April 10, 2012 - 08:48 pm: Edit Post

Paige missed some of our most infamous hints, Dakar's visions? This one was when Dakar was trying to find the same event Jieret had warned them of, he was trying to trace the source of the execution. But Dakar's dread got the better of him. This set of prophecies is from Fugitive Prince (CH IV Turnaround, pg 135 in the latest paperback)I use digital versions to find the quotes, so tend to be lazy and not include the references. I am thinking Arithon might have met the unicorn before Initiate's Trial, but we will have to wait for Destiny's Conflict to find out.


There are a few such hints in the past books, Ath's Adept gave one at Lysaer's trial, Morriel's vision of her downfall should also be seen in the next book. And Lysaer himself is a good source of hints, although while under the influence of the curse he usually gets it sort of back the front. But certainly some of the things Lysaer has said about Arithon, and how Lysaer behaved could lead to some wild speculation. When not under influence of the curse Lysaer has no such pretensions to divinity, and does not seem to favour wearing white. I am actually starting to think going on what all these judges wear (black) if Lysaer got his colours reversed as well, maybe it is not only Arithon that changes.

And it is suspicious that after all these years we still do not know what Etarra's sigil is, Janny seems to be keeping that as a surprise.


The nest of vipers at Hanshire with a little encouragement from Davien was the source of the rebellion. Hanshire has also been associated with dark practice, so probably the independent Koriani avoid the place for good reason. Elaira spent some time there while being trained. And it was already revealed what Morriel wanted from Hanshire's ruling family, she never got it. Necromancers and Koriani always seem to choose sites where the mysteries are closest to the surface. There is likely something else in Hanshire that attracted them all, the triaxial knots would be a hint. The dais of carven, serpentine jade left by the ancient Paravians is probably something to do with it. Janny never mentions such obscure things in such detail unless she has a reason for it. We might not know it at the time, but it is bound to come up later.

I suspect some of the intricate descriptions of magic will come up later in an entirely different light. Janny was showing us how it could work, but left the speculation to us once we got suspicious, some creative thinking is needed to wonder where Janny is going with that.

Remember Mother Dark's mystery walk in Arithon's tracks, we might not know where he is going or how he is getting there, but watching how he evolves once freed of the curse and how he applies his talents might be a clue. Apart from one glimpse in the first book we have yet to see if Lysaer has any creative potential, he wasted most of his time using his talent to blind fools and destroy things. Maybe Daliana will bring out a different side to him if given a chance.


I agree, if prime power can only be passed to a female, Elaira is the one most likely to end up with it in the next book. But I do not think Elaira is its final destination.


quote:

His enchantress retained her forlorn charge of the fact his male existence had once celebrated his true match




We will probably have to wait for Song of the Mysteries to see if Prime Power stays with Elaira, finds a better match, or maybe evolves into something else.


   By Julie on Sunday, April 15, 2012 - 11:18 am: Edit Post

Hi Annette:

Part of what I liked so much about Initiate's Trial is our glimpses of Lysaer's creative talent. Although it would be wonderful if Lysaer could have reversed five centuries of hate and destruction , the mere fact that he secured some peace for the clans in Rathain is huge. His inborn sense of justice prevailed at Daliana's "trial". And I think he really detests the true faith and their violent imperialism. He is pretty much powerless. This was what the Ath's adept warned about in Fugitive Prince.
As for Elaira and the Koriani. Perhaps Arithon uses the Beider knife to break the necromanic (my word!)ties to Selidie, the Koriani is then forced to drastically reconfigure or die out. Can't imagine Elaira would have any interest in being the leader of any group.


   By Annette on Sunday, April 15, 2012 - 05:43 pm: Edit Post

Lysaer's sense of justice has always been strong, if twisted by the curse most of the time we have seen him. It was Lysaer's more practical creative side I was thinking of.


quote:

Strung in his hands was a chain of lights, delicate as flame hung on beadwire.





quote:


But her glance betrayed her, as she marvelled at the shining string that quivered and danced between his hands. His smile deepened at the corners. 'No jewel can compare.'He looked down at the bauble, made it gleam and spit sparks like stirred embers. 'This cannot compare. It's a poor, flashy phantom. A worthless illusion sprung from light. But if you insist on hiding in the darkness, at least if you wear it, you'll be gilded.' He reached up, stepped closer and, with a gesture that brushed the bared skin of her collarbones, settled his spell around her neck.
The lights were neither warm nor cold; in fact, their presence against her flesh raised no tactile sensation at all. That for an oddity made her ache. As if, like a gem or a pearl, she should feel something tangible from his gift.
'Gold suits you,' Lysaer murmured. He watched in quiet pleasure as she experimented with his handiwork, let it spill like captive fireflies through her fingers.




Arithon can create realistic looking shadows, in Initiates Trial that dead horse seemed to have been an improvement over his previous efforts, without using initiate talent how did it stay there that long? Arithon also has other talents, his musical ability to create the grand chord is a significant one.

Lysaer has the same s'Ahelas inheritance as Arithon, far sight, prophecy and mage gifted if untrained. Lysaer has with a bit of help used his talent once for healing, and at Tirans we saw he could absorb light as well as create it. If freed of the curse and love had a chance to redeem him, what else might Lysaer be able to do? Janny has been very secretive about Lysaer's destiny. Apart from a centaur asking him to come home, there was not many clues. It seems Athlieria might be final destination for just about everyone, so that was no help. Although three times Lysaer was offered that choice and three times he refused, surely they would not have offered it if Lysaer's destiny was in Athera?


   By Gary on Sunday, April 15, 2012 - 06:16 pm: Edit Post

Annette,
I thought there was a hint of implied greatness in Lysaer's power, as seen by Jieret after his encounter with the Raven in Peril's Gate (XI Nightfall):


quote:

Light flowed from the aperture framed by his hand, two threads of harmonic resonance pulled from the grand chord and bidden to manifest as white fire.



I'm not sure what could be implied from this, but it sounds similar to some aspects of what Ath's Adepts do in their sacred groves. IIRC there, they also pull power from the grand chord, and use it to weave representations of inner being (dreams) - and other things, I'm aware that my description is sorely lacking.

In fact, it seems like Ath's Adepts show reality/truth (note the difference between this and the power of Prophecy).

I don't quite see the wider picture yet here (especially what it may mean for Lysaer), but could be worth thinking about?


   By Gary on Sunday, April 15, 2012 - 06:22 pm: Edit Post

Annette,
the main hint of non-Koriani dark practice that I could see with Hanshire was the issue with Sulfin's great-uncle, and I wasn't completely willing to rule out the possibility that it was actually related to Erdane not being so far away.

But you raise some very good points, I retract most of my supposition :-) Elaira's thought still seems strange to me though.


   By Annette on Monday, April 16, 2012 - 05:16 am: Edit Post

SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER


quote:

Beyond pride, he aired the unsavoury history that had shadowed his paternal name for generations. 'Our mayors have always traded dark secrets. My sire learned the practice at his grandfather's knee, and Raiett was his closest confidant. Remember that Hanshire's provided a roost for Koriathain all the way back to the uprising! The town's history is ugly, its past record core-rotten with treason. The hotbed of ill craft and entangled jealousy began there, with the dissenting minds that fermented the crown massacre intended to unseat the compact.'




Elaira was only a third rank healer, such intrigues and dark dealings would be against her nature. She was never involved with that side of her order. What right thinking healer would stay in a place like that? There could be something more to it, but if so I cannot remember Janny mentioning it yet. But then re-reading often brings little details to light you never noticed before, it could be hidden in there some where. It was mentioned in Peril's Gate that Hanshire's mayors don't fraternize with Erdane's council, so it does not seem likely Sulfin's grand-uncle would have moved to Erdane. Having clan blood it would have been dangerous for him, more likely the incident occurred in Hanshire.


Elaira gains Prime power (probably by being the only female who can survive it) she can hardly turn the job down. As the head of the order she can do with it whatever she wants. A compassionate order of healers devoted to helping others seems something that would appeal to Elaira. I do not see Seliedie/Morriel willingly offering Elaira a chance at Prime power, but once Morriel finally gets exorcised, redeemed or whatever it takes to send her on her way that Prime power has to find a new home. Presumably Morriel cannot take it with her. Selidie seems a poor proposition, Lirenda is still flawed and a few hints have been given Elaira might succeed. If Morriel is going to invite Arithon into her lair for anything, Elaira is probably going to be there. Or maybe it is Elaira and Selidie/Morriel that have the showdown and Arithon is just the bait. Somehow I think Janny will have all of them in the same room, Selidie/Morriel, Lirenda, Elaira, Arithon and the Waystone, we just have to see how she manages to get them all there, and what mayhem results from it. I do not see Morriel making the mistake that undoes her unless she is face to face with her bane. Not unless Arithon is planning on just slowly driving her insane, which she seems to already be doing by herself anyway.


Arithon's comment 'In fact, I should skulk in my enemy’s skin?'was intriguing, it seemed a bit extreme for just wearing The Hatchet's helmet, although Arithon did do better than just that. You have to wonder after such a brief meeting with The Hatchet, how did Arithon manage to duplicate him so well, is he pulling imprints from possessions these days to fill out his acting expertise? If there was more to Arithon's comment about skulking in his enemies skin which enemy? Selidie, Lysaer another group of necromancers, or someone else. We have yet to see how Arithon is going to get rid of that True Sect priesthood, if in fact that is his problem to solve. While they seem very bloodthirsty it does not seem likely they are going to be drinking blood literally. Dakar suggested they are more into bone, maybe it is not Elaira who is going to be sacrificing a finger? We have seen hair and blood used for dark practice, bone knives but not splinters of bone yet. Be interesting to see how they meet their demise, and which brother is responsible. Lysaer while not completely in their power yet, seems likely to go that way. Will he in fact torch them himself when he realises what he has done, is the glory of Arithon's intact aura truly going to be fatal to some, or is something else going to happen, Seshkrozchiel maybe.


   By Clansman on Monday, April 16, 2012 - 10:51 am: Edit Post

I've been saying this on this board for about 5 years that in order for there to be resolution in this story, Lysaer must be redeemed somehow. Annette said a few posts above:

"If freed of the curse and love had a chance to redeem him, what else might Lysaer be able to do?"

Love. An underpinning theme of this entire series, and I mean that self-sacrificing kind of love that we have seen displayed since the beginning of this series, by Arithon, Elaira, the Fellowship, and selfless sacrifices by the clans at various times. Jieret gave his life so that Arithon could have his.

Yesterday, I heard the song by Sting called "Love is Stronger than Justice" (a tongue in cheek song, to be sure), but taking the chorus at a higher meaning than what the verses would indicate, Love may conquer Lysaer's twisted sense of Justice. Sulfin Evend started the work, and it is being continued by Daliana.

This is also an ancient Christian theme (the atoning sacrifice of Christ (love) for the sins of humanity, freeing them from the consequences of their breaking of God's law (justice)) that has been often (read: regularly) ignored by Christian churches ever since. Could the "whited sepulchres" that are the leaders of the True Sect themselves be undone by Love? By an all-atoning sacrifice of some kind? The prologue in CotMW only mentions "temple archives", not that the temple is active.

We have all learned to our pleasure that nothing is to be taken for granted when it comes to Janny's writing. Nuance, hidden meaning, subtle double entendre are her stock in trade!

The questions is, how will Love conquer justice? And after justice is conquered, what is in store for Lysaer to do, set free from the Curse? I do not believe that the initial prophecies of Dakar are brought to fruition, as the Mistwraith, both in Rockfell and on Marak, is only contained, not yet defeated. Therefore, Arithon and Lysaer must join forces once again in order to free the wraiths from their eternal torment (again, another sacrifice based out of love). Notice that the wraiths were never defeated by force, only contained. They were put to rest by Arithon Naming them, over a period of centuries.


   By Julie on Tuesday, April 17, 2012 - 03:17 pm: Edit Post

Clansman:

Although I may not have stated it as eloquently as you- I have also said Lysaer must be redeemed at some point. You mentioned self sacrificing kind of love- I absolutley believe Lysaer is capable of this. In COTM he declines Traithe's offer of instruction on the basis of devoting his full self to "his people". Now that is his upbringing speaking but throughout the series he does sacrifice much (Talith) however twisted the motivation.
I am not sure if love has to conquer justice. For Lysaer love has to work in partner with justice


   By Annette on Tuesday, April 17, 2012 - 04:14 pm: Edit Post

Actually it takes a bit more than just Naming a wraith to redeem it, it takes grace and compassion as well. Arithon took care of all Marak's wraiths and he likely gets the fun job of redeeming all the others still imprisoned on this side of the veil. Those in Rockfell those entrapped in crystal, and probably some drake spawn thrown in for good measure. If Lysaer had a part to play in redeeming Rockfells wraiths, Ath's adepts and the centaur would not have been trying to redeem him. Lysaer has to claim his own salvation before he can go helping any other lost spirits. It is likely those still living that are lost Lysaer can help with in some way, part of that problems was after all of his making. He might get a part yet in the grand destiny but it seems unlikely to be as a mortal Prince if Ath's gifted are all trying to get him to Athlieria.


quote:

The adept swept to her feet, relentless. "Unstop your ears and listen, scion of s'Ilessid. Persist on your present path, and you shall gain your desires." As Lysaer's blue eyes widened, she pressed him, "Oh yes. Your half brother shall walk in the shadow you create. But not before you stand blackened enough to raise despair of a force sufficient to break him. Every mortal enclave on this continent shall fall as victim to your cause. Your memory shall be sealed in the archives by violence, for nothing in creation can stand or flourish in the absence of love. Let us see, in the hour that Arithon's blood stains your hands, whether conviction for your fellowman or overweening pride is your master."





I still think the clues about what Lysaer has to do a bit vague, on the face of it once freed of the curse Lysaer's own gift of Justice is going to doom him. No Paravians, adepts or Fellowship Sorcerers will be offering him assistance. Maybe Arithon can help before hand but if left on his own to face the consequences of his actions Lysaer will have to find his own redemption.


quote:

I would forfeit salvation before taking the chance of abandoning mankind to the darkness




Whether cursed or not, I do not think Lysaer's thoughts above are going to change. It might take more than a miracle to get Lysaer to Athlieria, he might insist on seeking his own requital. If redeemed by love and given a chance to be all that he could be, what would he do?


   By Julie on Wednesday, April 18, 2012 - 10:54 am: Edit Post

I do not think Lysaer is so unchangeable or lost. We have never been let into his head as much as Arithon's. He loved and was loved by Talith and has rued his treatment of her for hundreds of years. He is becomming self aware and struggles to contain the curse. Although he may not fully trust Dakar he welcomes his company and advise. He may not be able to directly appeal to the Fellowship, but in his right mind he does not reject their help. He knew about Sulfen Evend's oath and spirit mark. Dakar reminded him about that man's "exquisite loyalty" through providing decendants to support him in his need. I refuse to believe Lysaer sees these as mere tools to kill Arithon and break the compact.


   By Anmoal Chopra on Thursday, May 24, 2012 - 02:39 pm: Edit Post

Hi All,

just finished the latest book and may I say it was great. I was a bit upset with the death of Havish's King he was young but the deed was beyond his years, this alone should be merited and applauded :-)

I think the next book will be about bringing back the return of the missing sorcerer (Black Rose Prophecy) and the return of Arithons locked past. He needs to be fully functional to help defeat the curse. I would like to see if Arithon lashes out at Dakar for the imprisonment he had to endure at the hand of the witches that are the Koriathain.

Knowing my luck my above thoughts wont come to pass just yet but gut says that the there is a price for the black arts that is fuelling the True sect.

Personally I hope in the end Lysaer breaks free of the curse with Arithon's help :-)


   By Janny Wurts on Monday, May 28, 2012 - 08:41 am: Edit Post

Just back from Oasis in Orlando - what a lovely weekend, great people and a sweet convention - run by folks who know how to do it with panache. We had a warm and wonderful time.

There will be a status update shortly.


   By Annette on Monday, May 28, 2012 - 07:18 pm: Edit Post

We are to speculate on what the reading was? :-)

Nice you had a good time even if there were not truckloads of WoLaS fans there plying you with inducements to spill some news. Did you do anything for the charity auction?


   By Janny Wurts on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 09:24 am: Edit Post

Yes, for the charity auction.
There were a few readers there, and we hope, a few new ones picked up books from the table.


   By Annette on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 04:47 pm: Edit Post

Back to the speculating then, while we wait. :-)

I do not think Arithon would ever strike out at Dakar, Dakar did his best, he is only human and fallible. Dakar should know Arithon well enough by now to know he is not going to be blamed for what happened, so I think it must be some other consequence that has Dakar shaking in his boots.

Arithon seems doomed to forgive everyone else but himself, so if he cannot blame anyone else for what happened I suppose he will end up blaming himself for allowing it to happen, even though he knew nothing about a daughter, and was completely powerless to prevent what she freely chose to do with her life. If he could hold himself responsible for Jieret's death, it will be interesting to see how he blames himself for what happened to Teylia. If his temper gets the better of him he should take up the grievance up with Selidie Prime, who I thought was a better candidate for blame than Dakar.

Arithon gave permission for his imprisonment even if it was under duress (or maybe he just chose to die, we have yet to get to that bit), it would have been Selidie pulling the strings again. Dakar might have sold him out to the Fellowship yet again, but it could have been a lot worse, at least he is still alive because or Dakar's intervention, and Athera has not been invaded by free wraith's.


   By Julie on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 01:30 pm: Edit Post

Well he may have also judged that this was the best course of action based on his prismatic farsight. Instead of looking at the short term, the far reaching effects were deemed acceptable.


   By Annette on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 08:54 pm: Edit Post

Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler.


Oh I am sure Arithon knows what he is doing, definitely that one looks at the long term picture. That he ensured (he hoped) that he could never again be put into the situation that Elaira's life could be used against him like that shows he was thinking long term. He expected to survive somehow no matter what happened. Pretty sure Arithon when himself and whole has the far distant future of mankind in mind. I suspect there is more than just the Biedar acting behind the scenes to help him with that. Dakar's unconscious visions that cannot be changed have just been too convenient for a start.


   By Doug Hope on Monday, June 11, 2012 - 05:34 pm: Edit Post

Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler




I am looking forward to the upcoming conflicts. My hope is many of the questions will be answered and our romeo and juliet DO get a life after all is said and done. At present i cannot even attempt to figure how. Really enjoying reading all of you're debates, assumptions and predictions. I am in awe of your knowledge of the story thus far.


   By Julie on Monday, June 18, 2012 - 01:46 pm: Edit Post

Well there is 200 years left to the life span enhanced by Davien's fountain. That is four times what mere mortals get to have in meaningful relationships!


   By Annette on Wednesday, June 20, 2012 - 05:50 pm: Edit Post

That was the natural lifespan though, at least one brother is likely going to be meeting an untimely death before then. Janny is unlikely to be covering 200 years in the next book, so presumably the legends that survived to the seventh age saying the conflict lasted 500 years were a bit out. The conflict between the brothers would likely end within the current generation of characters. The conflict over theology would last longer.

I do not see Arithon and Elaira getting any chance for a life together before the end of the conflict, so there must be more, we get 11 books.
Lysaer spent most of his time avoiding meaningful relationships, third time lucky. Presumably Lysaer and Daliana get a chance to set up their happy home together, fate always seems to look after Lysaer. We are waiting to see when this new city gets built, Arithon would never build a new city on Daon Ramon Barrens, so it would have to be Lysaer. It seems whenever he is happy he wants to build something.


   By Julie on Wednesday, June 20, 2012 - 07:07 pm: Edit Post

You are too hard on Lysaer!He likes his creature comforts but is not unhappy without them. We do not know what Janny has up her sleeve- a hundred years per book? It could easily take a gerneration for the True Sect's influence to reach insignificant levels. At the end of the last book we are set up for renewed zealotry although I do not think Lysaer will want anything to do with it. He is going to be wracked with guilt. I do hope that Janny introduces a viable solution for Lysaer to rid himself of the curse. The conflict does not neccesarily have to continue to be between Lysaer and Arithon.


   By George on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 02:35 am: Edit Post

Hi! Just de-lurking after a looooooong time.

SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER (is it really a spoiler?)

A thought occurred to me the other day. Sethvir seems worried about the fact that the Great Waystone is now cleansed and that the citrine vein through it has affected its aura - such that Athera will not be able to protect itself from the Great Waystone.

HOWEVER, I also note that Davien (who orchestrated the Waystone being so affected) is now free of his "pet" Drake :-)

I just wonder whether Davien was able to forsee that the Great Waystone would be affected in such a manner and that he had placed things in motion on purpose. I also wonder whether the Citrine vein will also play a part in the Waystone's undoing.

I suppose that nothing is for certain except that Davien is a wild card!


   By Gillian Bonnell on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 05:26 am: Edit Post

Hi George,

You could have hit on something there as Davien's ring is Citrine.


   By Annette on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 06:10 am: Edit Post

Hello George, welcome to the very quiet specultion thread. :-)


Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler.

I would love to know how that bit of citrine gave Sethvir access, was it perhaps because it was created on Athera? The original stone was from elsewhere, but the citrine part of the stone is now Atheran?

Actually I think the Waystone probably gets a prime position in the coming events, it seems fated to cross Arithon's path. Be interesting to see if the Waystone ends up half and half all yellow or just plain breaks in two.

I also suspect the word Waystone has a Paravian root Janny has been keeping under wraps. Just like I bet Elkforest is not named so because it has a lot of four footed elks roaming around in it.


   By Sleo on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 11:44 am: Edit Post

Geeze! I'm going to have to reread since I can't remember a damn thing about that citrine in the Waystone!

I'm not much of a speculator. I only know what my HOPES are! Such as: I hope Arithon and Lysaer both find some peace and serenity by the end and can live a period with normal lives. I hope the sleeping sorcerer wakes up. I hope the Paravians return. I hope humanity finds some kind of balance in their ability to live on Athera (unlike our own version of humanity, I might add.) I hope no one goes up in flames. I hope Elaira and Arithon are able to reconnect in their love. I hope Lysaer becomes able to love and can return Daliana's love. I even hope Morriel is able to make peace with herself and die without killing Selidie. Not to mention poor Lirenda.

Sigh.


   By Gillian Bonnell on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 11:52 am: Edit Post

Agree with all your hopes Slee. Am just now rereading all the books and have reached The Stormed Fortress again. I had not previously noticed a number of things and am now able to understand more of Jenny's hints.

My hope that Arithon and Elaira are able to complete their interrupted liaison!!! You know what I mean.

Gill


   By Julie on Sunday, July 08, 2012 - 01:04 pm: Edit Post

I imagine they will. But mostly for Arithon I hope he gets to have some some time with her unencumbered by royal duties and saving the world. He was so happy during those 6 years with Haliron.


   By Annette on Sunday, July 08, 2012 - 07:29 pm: Edit Post

Actually I suspect Arithon is going to be looking after Athera for a while,I am expecting him to actually agree to be her protector. Does not mean he is not going to be happy, his requirements for happiness were very simple. Elaira, music and a chance to study the mysteries. If he gets a chance to put aside crown and Alithiel, nothing was mentioned about having no responsibilities. He always showed a natural tendency to want to save everyone.


   By Annette on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 10:38 pm: Edit Post

SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER

What did we think of the italic highlighted bits on pages 162-163 (HB/TPB) of Initiate's Trial? I read over them a few times and thought they were old. Is Janny trying to fool us? Memory or prescience, or both! The more interesting I think is the second description.


quote:

Initiate's Trial pg 163 HB/TPB
but another place of dank mist and jaggedly rocky terrain, sprawled with war dead; and after these, other corpses, fallen in graphic slaughter under a green canopy of summer forest. The re-echoed torment of those fatalities drowned his identity, and much worse. He heard again the pealed cries of terrorized women and children put to death in a frenzy of massacre.




You could read it and think Tal Quorin and the massacre at the grottos, but is it?


   By Annette on Monday, August 13, 2012 - 08:16 am: Edit Post

SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER



quote:

"And where in creation is Prince Lysaer?” “A very sharp question.” Mearn s’Brydion’s irksome, bright smile gave way to intent speculation.




Noticed that quote in Fugitive Prince, fitted my current thinking perfectly. I must say Lysaer's role in all this is a complete mystery. I am sure he has a role in the bigger picture, but Janny is just too devious. She has me chasing shadows all over the place.


   By Julie on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 07:35 pm: Edit Post

I have been re reading Stormed Fortress and just finished the part where under the influence of Arithon's Paravian working Lysaer is speaking with Sulfen Evend. His self honesty, and longing to be released from the curse are palpable. His is the much harder journey and as such may turn out to be Arithon's most difficult trial- defeat of the mistwraith and returning to the relationship built at Ithamon.


   By Annette on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 08:18 pm: Edit Post

I am I think a pessimist, I am expecting the Mistwraith to get its final revenge by ensuring the brothers remain separated. But I do also expect Lysaer to be Arithon's most difficult trial, hope he turns out to be worth all that trouble.


   By Julie on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 10:31 pm: Edit Post

I think he most certainly will be- he has all the qualities needed for a good ruler- Arithon has said so several times. Would love to know why the Rauven mages refused to educate him- maybe they though his father's influence too strong and he would wield magecraft for feud. Although if he was anything like Kevor that would not have happened and we would not have this long saga!!


   By Annette on Thursday, August 16, 2012 - 03:08 am: Edit Post

SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER


The line seems to breed true, pretty sure Lysaer would have been exactly like Kevor when he was that age, he was willing to hate long before he was cursed. If kevor had lived long enough in his fathers shadow he might have been corrupted as well. He is better of with the Adepts.

As a good ruler, Lysaer would need no mage training, his father explained why those do not go together years ago, and we saw what trying to mix them did to Arithon. And the Rauven mages would not be putting any power in the hands of anyone likely to use it as a weapon to blind or destroy others. Cursed or not Lysaer has hardly used his gift for anything else so far, would be nice to see him experiment more with what else it can do. Talith inspired his more creative side at least once, maybe Daliana will as well. Matrimonial bliss Lysaer has so far missed out on, third time lucky.

But if he goes and builds his love nest in the middle of Daon Ramon Barrens, I must say he deserves to get a dragon raining scorching piss on him for his upstart pretensions.


   By Gillian Bonnell on Friday, August 17, 2012 - 05:52 am: Edit Post

Unlike the rest of you I am unforgiving. Lysaer does not deserve Arithon's compassion. He was hardly a kind person before the curse hit him. When Arithon was his prisoner in TCOTM he held him in awful conditions. Admittedly he feared sorcery but do the marks the Arithon still carries of the shackles not condemn Lysaer and his father. His bitterness about his mother's behaviour over two hundred years after the event is not the attitude of a mature mind.


   By Clansman on Friday, August 17, 2012 - 08:18 am: Edit Post

Ah, but Gillian, forgiveness is not a gift to the recipient. It is a gift to the giver. Without forgiveness flowing between Arithon and Lysaer, the Mistwraith will never be defeated, and the evil stirred up by the Curse's impact on Lysaer and his creation of the Light, and its morphing into the True Sect, will not abate. Arithon will forgive Lysaer and extend his compassion to him. It is in the very nature of who Arithon is, imho. Also, Arithon's gift of forgiveness frees him from the bitterness of the pain inflicted on him by Lysaer. Remember, there was a burgeoning friendship between the half-brothers prior to Lysaer being attacked at Ithamon, so Arithon had obviously come to terms with Lysaer's actions on Dascen Elur and in the Red Desert, and this well before the development of Arithon's understanding of Paravian grace and the mysteries of Athera. Arithon was already freed, or almost, of his bitterness towards Lysaer for those early acts of violence against him.

No one deserves forgiveness. Judgment and justice have nothing to do with forgiveness. Forgiveness is simply an act of pure grace. With all of Janny's references to Paravian grace, and the grace of Ath, and how these acts of grace can overcome the worst of sins (Arithon was no angel in his life prior to the King's Grove. His actions may have been justified, but were they perfect? or even good?), it seems that a major theme of the resolution of the main plot will be Compassion and Forgiveness. Perhaps even a more pure form of Justice, rather than the tainted version engaged by Lysaer for so long. Lysaer certainly does not deserve Arithon's compassion or forgiveness. I am willing to bet that Arithon, if given the chance, will extend that grace to his half-brother. He has just spent the better part of 2 and a half centuries giving that grace to murderous wraiths intent on his destruction, so he has a lot of practice.

And, Arithon knows what is at stake. Redemption and Forgiveness do not serve justice. They serve Grace.


   By Trys on Friday, August 17, 2012 - 09:04 am: Edit Post

Clansman, I agree with everything you said except for one small item. I don't think the wraiths were 'intent on his destruction' but rather intent on his possession. If one of them could have possessed Arithon imagine the devastation it could have wrought.


   By Gill on Friday, August 17, 2012 - 11:38 am: Edit Post

Clansman, you are obviously a much kinder person than I am; more humane. I understand your point and agree intellectually but more baser instincts say Lysaer needs to make a greater effort, perhaps using his gift to benefit others, before he deserves forgiveness


   By Clansman on Friday, August 17, 2012 - 12:36 pm: Edit Post

Gill, not kinder. Just a recipient of forgiveness, and having learned well the lesson the importance of my forgiving others. The hurts others have done to me do not have any power over me, nor do they cause me any bitterness or negative feelings, because of my act of having forgiven.

Without forgiveness, I'd be a slave to the pain this world inevitably inflicts.

Yes, Lysaer needs to do more, but remember, he was always more afflicted than Arithon, and had no defence. The F7 guarded the wrong Prince at Ithamon, where Arithon could have defended himself. Lysaer never got the chance to develop as he should have prior to the Curse ensnaring him.

Again, no one DESERVES forgiveness. But the person who was hurt, the one doing the forgiving deserves the freedom it grants. People often get that aspect of forgiveness mixed up. It is a central tenet of my Christian faith that a lot of so-called Christians get totally backwards (I have never found the Christian Right in the US to be really very Christian, for instance. I actually find them quite judgmental, selfish and hateful, in total contrast to the one in whom they claim to believe: Jesus Christ). No one deserves forgiveness. It is a gift freely given. It does not mean that you don't remain responsible for the harm you have caused, or that the consequences of your past conduct won't still reverberate through your life. It simply means that you have been absolved on a spiritual and emotional level of the guilt associated with the wrong-doing, and the shackles that guilt puts on your life.

Let's say that I stole money from my employer to feed a gambling habit. My employer discovers the theft, I am charged, and the wheels of justice start to grind in my life (or is that "up my life"?). When I am sentenced, my employer decides to make a public statement of forgiveness for what I have done. The judge takes that into account, but I would still have a criminal record, would be ordered to make restitution to my employer, I would still have lost my job and any respect that I had in the community, and I would still have to deal with my gambling problem.
But my employer would no longer harbour feelings of betrayal and resentment to my behaviour, and I would have been thrown a life line of grace to help me deal with the consequences in which I had put myself.

That is the point of grace. It is a gift freely given, a key to the bonds that we place on ourselves.


   By Walt on Friday, August 17, 2012 - 03:45 pm: Edit Post

Let us not forget one important fact about Arithon: his limitless capacity for compassion; at times unbearably so. I think it was Sethvir or maybe Jiret who observed that Arithon would forgive the hand of the person that knived him... without any reservations. Deserved or not, Lysander has Arithon's forgiveness.

Forgiveness is hard... don't I know it! I have many areas in my life where I am striving to get to that act of forgiving and letting it go. In my faith, we have a scripture that states "I the Lord will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men." As Clanman said, Grace is the gifted key to the bonds that we place on ourselves. Grace was the gift of Ath creator made real in the Paravians.


   By Annette on Friday, August 17, 2012 - 04:20 pm: Edit Post

I disagree Lysaer was more afflicted than Arithon, it was after all Lysaer's hatred that was used by the Mistwraith, it just fanned it a bit hotter. Lysaer was never really forced to do anything against his nature. He was always willing to kill and hate for a cause. He had been willing to kill Arithon long before he was cursed. Arithon was the one afflicted with a hatred that was foreign to his nature.

Lysaer was less protected, and subconsciously probably still struggling with his hatred despite the progress he had made. The wraith tempted him with something he wanted and he fell for it without a struggle. Only later did he realise what he had become and try and fight the curse.

But I agree salvation is not something you can earn, it is something you are freely given. Lysaer is going to be forgiven no matter how far he falls, it is accepting that forgiveness that will be hard. Ages later the Fellowship are still shackled by their guilt for past actions, despite all they have done since they accepted forgiveness. Being forgiven gave them the chance for a new life, but they still remember their mistakes and are haunted by them. Which makes it less likely they will make the same mistakes again.


   By Sleo on Friday, August 17, 2012 - 05:08 pm: Edit Post

I must say, I'm really enjoying this discussion about Lysaer.. It's making me think.


   By David Gardner on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 10:13 pm: Edit Post

I really think you are way too harsh on Lysaer, Annette. He has been affected by the curse for so long, in such subtle and insidious ways that it is all but impossible for us to say what his true personality is.

Personally I cannot separate his rejection of Ath's adepts and the Fellowship from the impact of the curse-- I can't say that it's just because he "hated Arithon anyway" and was "tempted" during the possession.


   By Annette on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 10:57 pm: Edit Post

Really? Maybe you are right, maybe not.

Lysaer rejects help more likely because of his pride, than any curse. Cursed or not he would still not be open to accepting help since he would see it as admitting to a weakness.


   By Julie on Tuesday, August 21, 2012 - 12:58 pm: Edit Post

Annette:

I think you underestimate the power of the curse. Arithon said repeatedly that he could not trust the reasons for his own actions being truly his own. It was only after the curse was lifted by the Sun Child that he could go forward fully self propelled.
Almost every scene in Initaite's Trial involving Lysaer showed him struggling to maintain self control. Also he did not "hate Arithon anyway". The extreme hurt from his mother's abandoment was flamed by his strict father- so yes he resented a half brother obviously cherished by his mother's kin. But I always thought he attempted to connect more than Arithon did.


   By Julie on Tuesday, August 21, 2012 - 01:10 pm: Edit Post

Clansman:

I meant to say earlier that you have spoken beautifully about forgiveness, grace, and compassion. Forgiving does free the grantor of the negative emotions associated with the transgression and may help lift some feelings of guilt. As far as this story goes, the Fellowship have said (can't remember where) that the brothers will be needed to act to together to permanently defeat the mistwraith. Giving and accepting forgiveness and all the responsibility that entails may the weapon. I think Lysaer has that capacity and free of the mistwraith's influence, the desire.


   By Annette on Tuesday, August 21, 2012 - 03:14 pm: Edit Post

I never said Lysaer hated Arithon anyway, but it was his hate that was used for the curse. Like Arithon, the curse worked out that was what was strongest and would work the best to influence Lysaer. Arithon never hated anyone before being cursed, despite all the cruelty he had suffered at s'Ilessid hands.

Lysaer's gift of justice was corrupted, his morals became warped, but he was not forced to do anything against his nature. No curse existed on Dascen Elur, or in the Red Desert. Lysaer was a killer before he was cursed, he is just following in his fathers footsteps. All the curse did was lock him into that behaviour to the detriment of his better nature.

Free of the Mistraith's curse, Lysaer's own sense of justice is more likely to be turned on himself. He will become his own judge, jury and executioner. Lysaer has to accept forgiveness before being freed of the curse, and so far the only two groups who could have helped him do that have tried and failed. Nothing is likely to change that Lysaer would suddenly be willing to go seek healing and forgiveness from Ath's Adepts. He had 249 years of freedom and never made an attempt, he is still quite willing to die with those blood debts on his conscience. A few more royals, clan enclaves and Caithdeinen on his conscience is probably not going to make any difference. He feels regret now he is fighting the curse, maybe he would even try to kill himself, but he is not likely to bend his stiff neck and seek self forgiveness. Lysaer already gave his opinion on what he thinks would be his downfall.


quote:

Why should I shoulder the chance of a murder that undermines all self-respect? What if I tell you that such a pitfall would hasten my certain destruction?’




It is not likely to be Daliana's death that speeds Lysaer to that moment of reckoning, Lysaer set himself up already for that downfall, there seems nothing he can do to avoid it even if he wanted to. Arithon can defeat the Mistraith, it is defeating the curse that is likely to get him killed. Lysaer might be willing to make a connection at that point, but what would he be connecting with? Despite his pretensions at divinity, Lysaer has shown no spiritual aptitude so far.


   By David Gardner on Wednesday, August 22, 2012 - 07:55 pm: Edit Post

Sorry Annette, I didn't mean to imply that's what you said by putting it in quotes- however it was the general vibe that I got from your post.

I will have to re-read Curse of the Mistwraith, my memory of Lysaer is that he was essentially a stupid kid trying to live up to an impossibly high standard, rather than him being a natural born killer. The imposition of the curse skews his ability to grow up now he's finally freed of his father's influence.


   By Annette on Thursday, August 23, 2012 - 06:28 am: Edit Post

Lysaer just tended to see things in black and white, he seemed to have a very narrow sheltered view of right and wrong and was all too willing to judge others guilty without looking at their side of things.

At the start of the series s'Ilessid judged Arithon a criminal who deserved to die. Lysaer would not have been born with that hatred, it was just how he grew up. S'Ilessid justice seemed warped long before any curse came on the scene, seven generations of blood feud seemed almost as bad as the curse. Where was the proof Arithon was ever a criminal? He was judged guilty just for being born s'Ffalenn. It took a lot to get Lysaer to look at things differently. True once he realised Arithon had been trying to help him, he went back for him in the Red Desert, but Lysaer was responsible for Arithon needing help in the first place. Although Lysaer at first quickly judged the clans criminals, later he decided a different approach was needed. So he was learning from experience and willing to look at things differently before the curse. I am not so sure Lysaer is free of his fathers influence though, it is that very hate the curse has stuck him with! Lysaer had got past that hatred before he was cursed.


quote:

'The shadow lurks in my own heart, won't you see? The foothold for obsession has been, all along, the spoiled, overheated, childish urge to punish my faithless mother's prized bastard!'’




Yes the childish urge to punish Arithon was Lysaer's problem that he failed to deal with. Which could have contributed to the reason why it was so easy for the wraith to influence Lysaer.


quote:

'Grief suffered in childhood broke the man’s spirit. If Eriegal dies, if he’s cast out, he might never outgrow his child’s rage for the family reft from him. Alive to accept the result of his choice, he might heal the wound of his losses.'




The above quote would seem to indicate being outcast could affect Lysaer's chances of healing, assuming being outcast is the same as being cast out. Perhaps Lysaer's individual little mote of awareness is truly seperate from the collective consciousness. I never really saw any obvious hints about how being outcast affects Lysaer's connection with Athera, but if the Fellowship no longer intercede on his behalf for residency, perhaps he has lost his connection. The imagery just after he was made outcast gave the impression the welcome mat had been withdrawn by at least some elements and there seemed no more tie to the mysteries. Yet within the bounds of normal time, everything seems the same as it always was. Janny is probably going to explain it all in the next book.


   By Julie on Thursday, August 23, 2012 - 09:35 pm: Edit Post

Annette:

I too will have to reread Curse of the Mistwraith. I was under the impression that Lysaer attacked Arithon in the sesert from uncontrolled emotional rage. If he was not dehydrated, hungry, and exhausted he may have been more tempered. He came back for Arithon because his sense of justice would not allow him to let him die. He grew to like, even admitting to love Arithon. Doesn't mean he was resolved of his "childish" jealousy.
I also recall when he was cast out of the compact he did feel the sacred undefined part of himself ripped away. He is just very good at marshalling his appearances. He begins to understand that beauty sources creation and the mysteries at the grimward. I am holding out hope that this series will have a good resolution.


   By Annette on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 06:55 pm: Edit Post

I think you might mean groves instead of grimwards Julie. And it is unlikely Lysaer in human form would ever be allowed access to any of them. Personally I have seen no sign he has started to understand the importance of the mysteries, he has never had any interest in them. Although I am curious how that tree guarding will work out eventually. I doubt Lysaer will be guarding too many in his current form, that curse honours no agreement, especially not with a tree. I am thinking the answer to that mystery might be in the past.

If you were to put Lysaer and the mysteries of a grimward together, Athera would probably end up a lifeless cinder. Lysaer is destructive enough without adding chaos and deathless rage into the mix. Athera's mysteries are not found in any grimward. Imprisoning Lysaer in a grimward might preserve Athera's mysteries longer, but no one would ever deprive Lysaer of his freedom of choice like that. Only spirits of dead dragons end up imprisoned in grimwards.


   By Julie on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 09:55 pm: Edit Post

I was referring to the part in ? Fugative Prince when Lysaer sends up a bolt of light to call the Hanshire troop from the grimward. At the same time Asandir sends Sulfin Evend through. Can't remember the words but Lysaer is acutely aware that his gift pales next to magecraft sourced from Ath's mysteries. There are a few seemingly minor mentions like this- only a couple of sentences scattered throughout the books.


   By Sleo on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 10:56 pm: Edit Post

I remember that, Julie. I think Lysaer does 'get it' from time to time, but he seems to lose it as fast as he gets it. He also has a basic suspicion of mage craft, and envies Arithon his training, which Lysaer didn't get because the mage who trained Arithon refused to train him. A sore point, I'm sure.


   By Annette on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 02:20 am: Edit Post

Lysaer had no power to call anyone from a grimward, nor were they near the grimward. He was just calling up power in defiance, in ignorant fear of the unknown. His reaction after the uncanny event of Sulfin's appearance, he wanted to dismiss the chord of grand mystery that had touched him. He was not interested in understanding it. He ended up not only misunderstanding it, but as usual decided it was evil.


quote:

Denial remained. If sorcery was wrought from the heart of life's source, if music and grand harmony and clean balance framed its powers, then Lysaer rocked on the edge of the abyss. All that he strove to accomplish in the world became unveiled as a misguided illusion.

"No." Lysaer shut his eyes, his two hands locked and shaking. Conflicted by self-honesty and devastated pride, he ached through a moment of absolute crisis, before he recalled his own truth: the adepts of Ath's brotherhood once sought to sway him the same way. They had used such diabolically crafted illusion to distort his perception, and blind honor, and convince him that Arithon s'Ffalenn was born innocent.

Indeed, what better way to seduce a mortal will from right action than to cloak perfect evil in a seamless, evocative beauty?.

Fugitive Prince pg 511-512 pb 2007 ed.




Definitely no sign of enlightenment came from that experience. Lysaer's wilful pride will not allow him to admit he is wrong. His later experience with the centaur explained more clearly why.


   By Annette on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 10:31 am: Edit Post

Not saying that Lysaer himself is evil, but he is right, what better way to seduce mortals into wrong behaviour than lead them astray with with evocative beauty. The false light blinding humanity to the truth and leading them astray is not the mysteries though.


   By Julie on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 12:53 pm: Edit Post

Sleo and Annette:

Yes, Lysaer's pride and other faults tip the balance- but the Mistwraith is coiled around every facet of his being prodding, blocking, etc. The curse may be quiescent at times but that does not mean gone, just much easier to contol.
His disturst of magecraft is also not so straight forward, although Arithon's powers are enviable, Lysaer has talent beyond elemental that could be trained- I hope that some of the series will see him explore that side free of the mistwraith. He may be able to embrace beauty and balance.


   By Annette on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 06:01 pm: Edit Post

But the Mistwaith is not coiled around every facet of Lysaer's being. It would affect many of his decisions, but not every aspect of his character. So we can pick out what Prince Charming would be like without his consuming hatred for Arithon his self blinding delusions and his warped sense of justice.

Lysaer's distrust of magecraft while there before he was cursed, was not a major issue. It only became an issue after the curse since Lysaer associated it with Arithon and wanted to wipe out all users of magecraft who were not loyal to himself, since he considered them enemies. For the 249 odd years Arithon was imprisoned, Lysaer could be himself with almost no cursed influence. So the clans were better protected in Rathain and the burnings presumably stopped. Lysaers interest would still be ruling power, and not anything like a Fellowship sanctioned king. We have seen enough of Fellowship sanctioned royalty to know they behave nothing like Lysaer. Does not mean he cannot change later, when he is rid of the curse. But how likely would Lysaer be to stick around after he realises what he has done? Look at what Lysaer was like at Alestron when under the influence of Alithiel's song. Lysaer will do a lot worse yet. Lysaer embraces beauty, balance and the mysteries it is more likely to be just before he departs this life.

Lysaer will embrace the beautiful Daliana and her love long before that, does that count? He might not change the direction of his fate but at least there will be a chance for more balance.


   By Julie on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 11:08 pm: Edit Post

Hopefully we will learn a bit about what Lysaer was like during Arithon's imprisonment in the next book. He certainly did not balk at the Fellowship at Daliana's "trial" or Dakar's persistent presence. We know that the True Sect did not have much power outside of Tysan and may assume they are unwelcome anywhere else. Lysaer rule would probably be as just as he could make it considering the established hatreds especially at Etarra. Interesting that he did not have any more wives or children- its almost as if he went through that part of his life just putting one foot in front of the other and not experiencing any joy. Guess his last true friend was Sulfin Evend. Too bad he wasnot granted Fellowship longevity.


   By Annette on Sunday, August 26, 2012 - 02:23 am: Edit Post

Lysaer experienced no joy since his separation from Talith, after his cruelty to Ellaine and his coldness towards kevor, it is not surprising Lysaer never wanted to repeat a loveless state marriage just for the sake of be-getting a heir. With no regency he had no need of a heir anyway, a Mayor's title is elected not inherited.

Be interesting to see how Lysaer reacts if Daliana gets pregnant. Especially if he has accepted kingship from the townspeople.


   By Sabine Kaeschner on Sunday, August 26, 2012 - 02:58 pm: Edit Post

@ Anette

You said: "At the start of the series s'Ilessid judged Arithon a criminal who deserved to die. Lysaer would not have been born with that hatred, it was just how he grew up (...) He was judged guilty just for being born s'Ffalenn."

I don't have my copy at hand, but Amroth suffered under the s'Ffalenn pirates for, as you yourself stated, 7 generations. When they found a pirate-ship, they were bound to believe it has come to plunder. And Arithon used his shadows to save this ship.
Shall not mean that I think Arithon was wrong to do so, but I think in this situation everyone would believe Arithon an evil pirate.
Later in the desert he was hungry, thirsty, kidnapped, and all that together with someone he had to believe was his enemy. As would everyone of us, too.
And about him being unable to overcome his fathers influence - we all try to be loved and approved of by the ones we love. He got rejected by his mother - which explaines even more that he needed his fathers approvel.
And remember - Arithon is the same. He also needed his fathers approvel of the actions and his absolution for being unable to save him.
It's not that Lysaer is born or raised bad, he just had to overcome his mistrust and cautionuess, and before the curse befall him he was on the best way to do so.
True, he has to much pride and that makes him act like a fool and all, (and I really don't like him!), but that doesn't make him a bad person.

Another thing worries me since I first read the prologue. If Arithon ever becomes king, shouldn't his name be at least be cleared? But the future wises knew of him only as a villain. And there were no fellowship sorcerers around to tell them otherwise ...


   By Annette on Sunday, August 26, 2012 - 05:19 pm: Edit Post

One brigantine from Karthan against 17 warships from Amroth? Probably neither side was right, neither wrong, but one big bully certainly seemed to be going to a lot of trouble to try and exterminate one little mouse. If the s'Ilessid forces caused their own fatalities in one battle we saw, how reliable were the reports of s'Ffalenn atrocities from the other battles? True if s'Ilessid justice was warped probably s'Ffalenn compassion was wearing thin, but we saw Arithon do some pretty heartless things to try and stop Lysaer. Amroth presumably kept losing, so they had to come up with some excuse for that.

Lysaer blamed Arithon for what happened to Talith, how likely is it that Amroth's king told the truth about what happened to his first wife and their two daughters? Would be nice if Janny actually went back at some point and we found out what happened there. Lysaer has two sisters he never got to meet.

If Lysaer had not been so busy being consumed by hate he should have worked out, if Arithon did not kill him while he was drugged and helpless maybe he had judged him wrongly. Despite what Lysaer thought it was not Arithon's fault he ended up kidnapped and banished. And lying around feeling sorry for himself was not going to do him any good. For pride he refused to move, Arithon used force to move him which later came back to cause Arithon a lot of trouble. But he knew that hatred would keep Lysaer going. Now I would have just walked off and left Lysaer to die, Arithon was determined to save him no matter what it took. We should finally be learning why in the next book.

The seventh age sages went and found out the truth for themselves (which is the books we are reading). Although the temple records state Arithon was evil, even in current times no one with any real wisdom is going to believe anything those temple records say, I doubt they are believed to be any more reliable by the sages. That they went and found out for themselves seems to back up that opinion. The sages know Arithon by name, and Lysaer by just a title which seems to show Arithon probably stayed around longer. There were other sources of info mentioned in the prologue that never agreed with the temples grandiloquently forceful lies anyway. If there are any remains of Lysaer's false religion by the seventh age, hopefully they are outnumbered by people with more sense.

I agree Lysaer is not evil, he just does bad things while under an evil influence. But I doubt Lysaer will be willing to see it as all the fault of the mistwraith, he made a lot of those decisions under his own power, where does his responsibilities for his own actions end? He accepts absolution for his human faults he can start with a clean slate, although others might not be as forgiving. Lysaer is so far willing to go to his grave with those blood debts on his conscience, he is willing to accept the consequences. So no doubt we will need a few boxes of tissues reading how Lysaer is eventually saved, Arithon does not seem likely to give up on him.