I doubt a dragon could dream the curse away even if one wanted to, the curse is not a physical thing, it is entangled with Lysaer's spirit, so any dreaming is likely to still destroy Lysaer. And a dragon is more likely to kill Lysaer while he is cursed, he would be seen as a threat to the Paravians.
Look at what Lysaer did when he entered one of Ath's hostels, he would destroy the kings glade and take a few kingdoms with him if he ever got near that much power. No one would ever be foolish enough to show him the way. Even Arithon had to be careful, and he had his training and bardic skills.
Yes, Arithon could help Lysaer, but he cannot get close enough to Lysaer without getting killed, and as far as we know, he cannot yet exist in a spirit form without a body. But I suspect that might be Arithon's plan.
Loosen the grip the curse has on Lysaer, with both Daliana's love, and the injustice of Arithon's suffering and death, and Lysaer will not be refusing a chance to accept redemption. And that is the easiest way to free Lysaer, they will just have to save him before his own gifts of justice and light kills him.
Already Janny has been throwing hints Lysaer's guilt might make him a bit suicidal. Once freed of the curse, Lysaer will no longer be blind to the truth of what he has done. And he would have done far worse by then. Look at how Lysaer felt during the siege of Alestron while under the influence of Alithiel's song. What will he be like when freed of the curse, and with a lot worse to feel guilty about?
So someone else being responsible for Arithon's death would not save Lysaer even though it will free him of the curse. And Arithon will use his own death as a weapon. Lysaer's thoughts on the matter in Amroth are likely to prove true, only this time Lysaer will be the king, and Arithon will not be aiming for the easier, quicker death.
And then there is Mak's curse to think of, does that still apply centuries later? I would think it would.
Lysaer is likely to be wishing with all his heart that he could undo past wrongs and that Fates wheel would turn backwards. And Lysaer like Kevor and Arithon would have some talent for grand conjury. We will have to wait and see what happens.
To me, the incident at Alestron showed that Arithon could get close to Lysaer by using his music to force the curse to remain quiet. It's just the other people who always interfere that are forcing continued separation.
Man that guilt like you said is going to be painful to witness.
Hmmm. That is true about the music. Without others getting in the way, he could meld music and the flux. He would be most potent in Rathain.
But guilt tempered with Love? Daliana in a way is the Caithdein to Lysaer. I know he is not sanctioned anymore but the relationship is there.
We already know Arithon will not blame or hate his brother. His compassion has and will prevent that. The guilt solely resides with Lysaer. But how much of that guilt is actually from the mist wraith? Anything to gain control over Lysaer. Any weakness will be pushed to breaking point.
I really believe when Lysaer is freed he will feel guilty. But more importantly, he will know how justice can be corrupted. From that experience he would make a better king. Just believe he will strive to do right from that point forward to make up for the past. But, the clans in Tysan would never accept him. Not sure how that would work even if he earned the sanction again. But a child from him and Daliana is a different story.
SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER
In the sneak peaks we have seen, we know from Janny that the first chapter involves Daliana and Davien. I assume that it also involves Lysaer and Dakar. They were all traveling together at the end of I.T. Minus Davien of course. Janny also said that she couldn't reveal too much about the first chapter without giving away too much. Maybe Davien opens up Daliana's inherited gifts. It is in his nature.
I thought Arithon had already melded music and the flux several times. It is melding his spirit with Alithiel's song he has not tried yet.
Lysaer would have to be absolved by the Paravians before the 7 would consider royal sanction. We already know they would look to his descendents and the clans would accept that. Amongst their worries about Lysaer is his guilt and remorse would cause him to harm himself. At the end of Initiate's Trial I understood Dakar's plan to help Daliana pull Lysaer from insanity did not just refer to the geas.
Janny: Its quiet here- how about that sneak peak?
Lysaer was outcast from the compact, which is a permanent thing, he will never be sanctioned for kingship by the Fellowship. Which is why they would look to one of his descendents, or a relative from Dascen Elur.
But then maybe Athera will no longer have the Fellowship chosen royal lines after the next book.
Maybe something else will replace the compact, freeing the Fellowship to go do something else. Lysaer's future is with the townspeople, who will eventually make him king.
Something more fun would be trying to guess how Elaira is going to be getting that info she needs from Althain Tower.
Sethvir cannot give it to her, she cannot just break in and get it. Is Elaira really going to breeze in for tea?
Sethvir always seems to leave a window open, and he always has a cup of tea near by. Maybe Elaira could some how use her talent to work through a cup of tea?
Why can't Elaira just ask?
Because of Asandir's oath of non interference where Arithon is concerned. I could be wrong, but I believe what Elaira is after would come under that.
Elaira was told where the information was to be found, no mentioned was made of asking Sethvir for it. So if indeed Elaira is going to be stonewalled, how is she going to learn what she needs to know?
Elaira told the Beidar elder that she would go and confer with Sethvir. I believe she would work around Asandir's oath as she is acting as a go between the Koriani and Beidar.
If the Fellowship are so hobbled by their oath, even their thoughts would be enough to break it!!
Elaira seeks to find out info about the stolen Biedar knowledge. This has nothing directly to do with Arithon, so I'm guessing Sethvir will be able to help. He can point to the pile and say have at it.
Now maybe there is something there that will help Arithon, but I think Sethvir will be able to work around the limitation with the whole 'Biedar Emissary asked me, I pointed to historical records' defense.
I think this will be more about Elaira growing in ability and knowledge. The Prime should be very worried.
Selidie/Morriel has always had a blind spot when it comes to the Fellowship. She hates them so much that she misses subtle details, which allow the Fellowship and/or their friends to wriggle through a small crack that the Prime has overlooked.
It usually has to do with the difference between the Koriani's world view and their use of coercive power, versus the F7'w world view and their use of permissive power. While coercion has immediate results, it's long term repercussions always result in a net negative. Permissive power in WoLaS is in the long run much more powerful than coercion, which is one of Janny's major themes in this story.
There's nothing like a piece of passive resistance.Much more effective than ranting and raving.You can get on quietly and achieve your objectives before anyone realises what's going on.Can you tell I have children? ; )
Yes. Yes I can.
Smile and wave, boys. Smile and wave.
Handfast to Rathain, holder of Arithon's heart, and his future, and now the Biedar's emissary to her beloved, who seeks knowledge about her secretive orders dark past and how they acquired their power. How could what Elaira is after not be considered crucial to Arithon's future? Elaira wants to protect him, and protect what she is keeping safe, any further knowledge or training she acquires will be used to thwart Selidie's plans for Arithon.
Sethvir will not stop her getting the info herself, he might be conveniently reading it at the time, but I doubt he will speak to her about it, or open the front door and invite Elaira in. If Elaira can speak to him, she can ask for the info and Sethvir would have to allow her to have it, so Sethvir will not be inviting Elaira in for tea, or speaking with her when she arrives at Althian tower to ask. I believe how to learn the info with no help from the Fellowship will be Elaira's problem to solve. It is in the tower, how else can she get in to search for it?
The Bedier Eldest said nothing about Elaira speaking to Sethvir, Elaira said that.
And I suspect Elaira might later be taking a trip to Hanshire as part of her quest for knowledge about her order and their secrets.
"some of the historical detail you seek will be found with the warden of althain", "search there, first".
- p380 Initiate's trial
Some? Curious :-)
"your steps will be protected" - so Koriani/necromancers won't be able to corner her and elaira is allowed to use the knife once. Is the skyron crystal something she could clear?
I think Elaira can *ask* F7 if she bumps into them. I think Sethvir can tell her what he wants and this is not direct help to Arithon. Has Elaira met Sethvir face to face yet? Don't think so? She has not been to Althain yet?
Biedar said that she "would stand"... and if she accepts the role the whole necromancy issue could be resolved. But Elaira has not dared to accept/promise? But will consult with Sethvir first?
Does this mean Elaire does *not* trust Biedar more than fellowship? Arithon has also refused Biedar "bizarre obligations"...so free will keeps Arithon/Elaira not entirely aligned to F7 or Biedar objectives which might be intentional?
I suppose the Biedar is not interested in the remnants of humanity on Athera except according to their agenda. Fellowship at least are trying to keep humanity alive on Athera for now. Would obliteration of humanity serve Biedar objective albeit an unpleasant outcome overall?
Would a smear campaign against Koriani limit their recruitment and mean they fade away or do we need the prime to go out "with a bang". I can guess which is more dramatic and a more fun read ;-) Although Selidie keeps having alternative back up plans...they are going to go for Elaira directly now rather than Arithon?
The knife only allows protection, it would still work the same as it did for Lysaer. It cannot be used to clear the Skyron focus stone, and the Skyron, like Elaira's personal crystal, might not want to be cleared.
The knife can be weilded once by Elaira to break the bonds of necromancy- like with Lysaer. Presumably Arithon will use it to free Selidie from Moriell- this will break the Koriani Prime succession (the vision that she had way back in the story). The Waystone would be inoperable and all of the stolen knowledge contained within it lost. The Skyron and Waystone were subjugated long ago. who knows what their original essences would want.
Any of Ath's adepts, or Arithon would know what the stone in question wanted. Neither of which would clear a stone against its will, or clear a stone if it would harm others. All the surviving Koriani seniors except Selidie would have their personal crystals aligned to the Skyron as part of their longevity bindings, what would happen to them if the Skyron was cleared? Selidie would have no longevity bindings, for the same reason her hands could not be healed, clearing the Waystone would not harm Selidie if she manages to survive all this.
The fresh batch of talent the Koriani induct is not likely to be high level enough to be offered longevity before Selidie finally gets her chance to deal with Arithon, in person, while he is in full possession of his wits. Arithon does usually give his adversary the first shot, which I suspect is a way to work out how Arithon will use that knife.
I do not think Arithon would use the knife directly on Selidie, or anyone else for that matter. Selidie is in no position to use the knife herself, since she is not in charge of her own body, and Morriel is not likely to let that knife any where near her. How did Sulfin Evend first use the knife? That would be the clue.
had an idea about drakes...
They live a long time...but sleep a long time...so they waking / sleeping time is a long cycle.
Is this how you steal an egg? Risk a visit to sleeping drake? OK so awake they are not to mess with but asleep are vulnerable?
Drakespawn are on a different rhythm...so whilst the drakes sleep - and if drakes are tired...they just won't wake until something terrrible occurs and it is too late...
humans are on different rhythm again? but somehow not changing over 5000 years...or are they slowly gaining the ability to live on Athera in the higher frequencies if they live close by? Does not look like it if they stay in the towns...
Still not sure why F7 would be considered "masters of destruction" compared to a drake...but perhaps the F7 alone need least sleep ?!?!
grimwards/drake/drakespawn damage is difficult or pracically impossible to repair back to normality? But finally a drake has learnt or found the inclination?
"masters of destruction": consider their past before they came to Athera.
well yeah :-) but *compared* to a drake? I wonder what drakes could not dream up? Or are they limited to planets? or just won't do the "true dreams" (IIRC)
I think F7 being the "masters" is related to ability of mankind to have a faster living cycle and be able to destroy planets with tools needing little effort? More bang for your buck, albeit contrary to law of major balance at need when drake-bound?
The Fellowship perceived themselves as the masters of destruction. They held themselves responsible for the destruction of their entire civilization. It had been their creation that had been used as a weapon to enact that destruction.
It was that perception of themselves that drew the drakes to them.
I am not sure, but I believe if the Fellowship break the Law of the Major Balance, they lose their power and the Koriani win.
Which is why those witches are so intent on causing mayhem. Their Prime has no morals to start with so nothing to lose, she will break even her orders own rules, in order to get what she wants.
Well Annette, I'm sure you know from your reading that the Fellowship is tasked with upholding the Laws of the Major Balance. But, if humanity (including the Koriani) are to break the "Laws", the Fellowship is also tasked with cleansing/eradicating humans from the face of Athera. So, the Koriani don't win anything. At least that is my interpretation from what I've read.
Charter law, is not the same as the Law of the Major Balance, which is the source of Fellowship power. The Koriani do not obey the LotMB in the first place. No one else has to obey it, it is voluntary, a choice. The Fellowship if they break their own compact and their own power, would not I think be in a position to destroy humanity, and would have no reason to if they could, so the balance of power would go to the Koriani, who would decide humanity's destiny. Not absolutely sure about that, but that is the impression I got by how careful the Fellowship was being to ensure they obeyed the LotMB. If they had been forced to kill Lysaer in order to protect Athera's mysteries, something dire would have happened as a consequence.
If humanity does not threaten the resonance of the planet, the dragons would not destroy them. And if the Fellowship break their own power, the Paravians seem unlikely to return to deny humanity their right to stay.
If the Koriani or the townborn break the compact, the Fellowship would be forced to destroy humanity, assuming they are at that time still bound by what brought them to Athera. If not, the dragons would destroy humanity.
Killing Arithon, would mean the Fellowship would never be restored to 7, but then they have not been 7 for some time. I do not really see how that breaks the compact, but apparently it might. For 500 years there was no crown rule, although there was always a royal(s'Lornmein) on Athera. Not sure if having no royal heirs on Athera would be a problem, it might be. Wiping out the clans would break the compact. If they lose Havish's royal line and Arithon is executed would it break the compact? Lysaer is outcast from the compact, even though he is still royal, he cannot be a Fellowship sanctioned royal heir. There are other royals on Dascen Elur would they not do? Maybe it is something to do with the resonance of Athera dropping, at least one royal heir on Athera is needed. Else why did they not send Havish's heir through West gate? Dari was born after the fall of Telmandir, she was younger than the Havish heir, yet when she was old enough she went through West Gate, why did Havish's heir stay behind?
Janny will get to it eventually.
Hi Annette, thank you for your reply. You pointed out a mistake in my post. I confused the "Law(s)" with "The Compact".
I got the impression from the prequel stories that the Havish royal line stayed secreted on Athera because they were unable to get off the planet when the world gates were still operational. The resonsnce of Athera is not impacted by the royal lines simply because they are royal- their vibrations are part of the fabric like any other being (animal, mineral, tree).
I do not see the relationship between preserving the Compact and the Seven being restored to their titular number except their full might ensure upholding the tenets of the Compact with less stress to themselves.
The prophecy about Arithon accepting kingship leading to the reunion of the 7 presumes a functioning Compact
Here's something to chew on: were the Paravians happy to agree to Ciladis's compact and have humans take over charter law (and responsibility for the kingdoms)?
I recall reading about centaur and sunchildren high kings, but not any unicorns holding the kingship. Yet there are references to the unicorns being the only unsullied link to Ath Creator.
So here's the potential curveball: Does holding a kingship sully the link to Ath Creator somehow? Is that why the unicorns are the only unsullied link left? And is that why humans don't tend to last long in the kingly roles? What might that mean for Arithon and the fulfilment of the Black Rose Prophecy?
Kings had short reigns because they were the appointed ambassadors to deal with Paravians. Standing in the presence of Paravians, even for the most enlightened human, took a toll on their health. It was too much awesomeness for them to handle for long.
Havish's orphaned prince was born before the fall of Telmandir so around 5018, since he was still dependent on milk. Dari was born well after the uprising in 5037. West Gate was not closed before Dari had been trained and was old enough to fend for herself. So why were only four royal lines sent through West gate? There were five royal heirs and they deliberately kept the Havish one on Athera, he could have gone through the gate once he was old enough, same as Dari did later.
For some reason the s'Lornmein line seems to have been kept in hiding rather than sent through West Gate. There seems to be an agreement there we have not been told about yet, there had to be a reason to keep that lineage on Athera.
We have yet to see any sign that Paravia was actually split up into separate kingdoms under Paravian rule. We only ever hear of one Paravian king at any one time, so seems more likely there was only one kingdom. And Paravians would need no charter to keep them in line with Athera's destiny. Unicorns probably preferred their freedom to kingship. Janny would have to tell us if one ever was king (or queen), but it would be a bit hard for a unicorn to carry a sword.
It was the Fellowship's compact, they swore it together, and are responsible for seeing it is kept. Ciladis helped draw up the kingdom charters under Paravian oversight. The compact and charter law are not the same. The Fellowship is responsible for the compact, humanity has to obey charter law, which it seems is slightly different for each kingdom.
It would be contact with the Paravians and Athera's mysteries that shortened the lifespan or reign of the royals. Arithon seems made a bit more durable, but still he will find another way to claim his inheritance.
Davien will bow to the Law of the Major Balance, when Arithon claims what he intended. Which was not kingship of Rathain, so there are two ways Arithon could reunite the Fellowship. He will be chasing the other alternative, one that I believe involves that earthlink Sethvir currently has.
Assume F7 cast strands to decide where to send the royal lines for best outcome. They could only save 4 of them...
Sigh :-) I need to reread alliance of light...thing is I have picked up traitor's knot ...I am starting in the wrong book :-)
interesting idea about the kingdom charters being different. Don't think we have seen any details? I seem to recall someone said the "needs of the land differed in each region" apparently? (maybe in appendix of stormed fortress?)
I think the kingdoms existed before mankind arrived but cannot remember any concrete reference to support this. When mankind's destiny is no longer linked with Athera...which seems possible long-term then the royal lines are released...I think Arithon may need to accept kingship to save Rathain in the short-term...but with a view to somehow bring townborn up a level to the point where a majority of humanity on Athera can perceive a little *more* (which might be hard work / tricky...but potential is there in all humans...but how could he do this with free will?)
Kingship is just the communication/arbitration between paravian and humans. And just a tough job...not corrupting per se I feel...just difficult.
[just read the SF appendix] town/clan crosses were less likely to withstand paravian presence. Town born cannot perceive why free wilds are sacrosanct but if paravians were around they would be less likely to trespass?
I note paravians lived in fortresses during second age...so they were vulnerable to attack roaming around
Lose Sethvir and you lose the compact (no earthlink to monitor and give other F7 members a steer.
Lose enough clan and I guess you cannot execute the agreement (the "grass roots" argument from GC)
In GK Moriel upsets a few grimwards? Why not just upset a few more? I suppose she is distracted by Arithon now. And Davien has recently done a proof of concept re: repairing the planet with a drake?
But first we need to deal with Koriani... mistwraith...and necromancers(or do we if they do not threaten the compact sufficiently to prioritise?)...and "the light" (who might be under the control of necromancers? Could another cult have succeeded in Tysan in Lysaer's absence? although I suppose this would have got a mention in IT ;-)...assume the other 2 cults do not include koriani... anyway they all threaten the compact still...
Davien must have a "next move" :-)
And the origins of F7 and Koriai history will surely divide humanity further?
I think Arithon will be dealing with the Koriani Prime last, after he has recovered from all the other problems he had to solve. In his current emotional state I doubt he would go any where near Selidie. Mistwraith, dragonspawn, necromancers, Lysaer and then Koriani I would think. That Beidar knife might give Arithon some much needed protection before he faces Selidie/Morriel.
Janny made a point of drawing our attention to what seems to be a difference with Melhalla's kingdom charter, cannot remember exactly where it started, but it was with the s'Brydion and why they could not swear fealty to Lysaer. They had an alliance, none swore fealty to either brother.
It would make it hard for Arithon to get into the Queens grove in Atwood, even though he has defended Melhalla and saved lives there. Even with a blood tie, that might be royal, he would get no where, since he is sanctioned as Rathains Prince. Shand seems to work a bit differently, kyrialt could swear fealty. I think Arithon is collecting ties to each clan that would enable him to protect them, as a brother, not as a Fellowship agent. But we have never seen any in Melhalla swear guest oath, Arithon's words of regret on his one visit to their Caithdein was he wished he had not crossed her threshold. Nothing about a guest oath. It is written in their kingdom charter, they swear fealty to no Prince from another kingdom or words to that effect.
Maybe all Arithon needs to do is burden Melhalla's Caithdein with enough shame one of their line would be sworn over, or they would give Arithon what he wants. But then if it turns out the current Caithdein are s'Brydion, I think they already managed to set themselves up. They would have been involved with the plot that ended up with Arithon being handed over to the Koriani.
Possibly there would be more than just shame, Jeynsa was under Arithon's protection, if her happiness was ruined, if she never had children, never married again, would restitution be owed for her loss. Sevrand was married to Jeynsa if he killed himself because of the shame of what his family had done, where would restitution there lie? Could Arithon lay claim because he was married to Jeynsa?
And then there is what happened with Eriegal, who had sworn fealty to Arithon, before Barach swore fealty to Rathain. How does that oath play out, could Arithon claim a personal debt for his lost life. And all that trouble the s'Brydion caused with their stance at Alestron. And that Parrien tried to kill Arithon, and still Arithon saved him.
Some of that lot might fall on Rathains clans, there seemed to be more than shame to deal with there, there were a few crown debts as well it seems Dakar could have called due. But I think Arithon would not want to strengthen any crown ties to Rathain. It would be the more personal debt or harm he would use. Remains to be seen if he can turn any to good use in Melhalla.
Someone will be visiting the Queens grove in Atwood, and Arithon seems the most likely, Elaira does not seem to have any chance.
Elaira seems more likely to gain a tie with Havish. Selidie set some bait for her in Havish, so Elaira will probably be returning. Maybe in time for another coronation, perhaps a queens. What would an imprint of that event mean for Elaira? Especially if Havish ends up losing their royal lineage. Or if Arithon steps in and snatches the last one before the babe can be sanctioned. Removing that last s'Lornmein from Fellowship control. Just who has Arithon taken on as ward in the sneak preview?
Last s'Ffallen and last of the Fellowship sanctioned royalty? Maybe Arithon has more than his own freedom in mind?
As the last sanctioned royal, it comes down to the same reason why the s'Lornmein prince was kept on Athera maybe. Kill the last of the Fellowship sanctioned royalty what happens?
Would not the compact require that there was always a sanctioned royal on Athera? They had Arithon and the s'Lornmein lineage. While Arithon was off fighting wraiths they had the s'Lornmein. All through the 500 years of banishment of the other royal lineages, they had the s'Lornmein. If the True Sect or some other lot of fanatics invade Havish and kill the ruling s'Lornmein, and it comes down to one unsanctioned babe kept safe but removed from Fellowship hands and Arithon?
The compact would break when they execute Arithon.
I'd be somewhat disappointed if it's Arithon who has to "deal" with the Korani.
I'd like to hope that individuals within the Sisterhood gain a deeper understanding of Athera's mysteries etc, and start by claiming their right to self determination (Lirenda, Elaira, hopefully the remaining parts of Seldie), and effecting change from within. For that matter, the crystals themselves.
Well you know how Arithon always likes to give his adversary's the first hit. And we have already had the hint ages ago how Morriel was going to meet her doom and it involves Arithon, and that Waystone. I should think he will just innocently walk into Selidie's trap, knowing it will be her doom and not his. Especially if she has that knife in her possession and thinks she is safe. Look at how Lysaer's attack on Sulfin Evend went. Look at how the first sect of Necromancers was dealt with. And if all else fails, he could just use his bardic skills to reflect her own attack back at her. But I do not think he would do that, I think he will just let her take the first shot, and suffer the consequences. Arithon will be blameless.
Other than Elaira and maybe Lirenda if she embraced a certain melody, none of the other Koriani initiates have the power to break the hold their Prime has on them. One of thos major focus stones have their imprints, and they swore their vows over a major crystal.
Elaira will be the one to deal with the Koriani, maybe with Lirenda and Selidies help, maybe not. Arithon will be the one to deal with Morriel, who after all is not that different to an insane wraith, or a necromancer.
Don't think Arithon walks innocently into any trap these days. he is the personification of free will choices! The Beider knife is for Elaira to give to Arithon. She may use it herself once. Seldie may know its origins but not how to defang it.
She should fear it because it is designed to cut the bonds of necromancy- which of course spells the end of Morriel and matriarchal succession. Of course if there are any sisters really dedicated to the founding tenets of the order they can direct the sisterhood to once again help assuage suffering. I know a fairy tale ending!!
Re: post from 29 June 2014
Has Elaira met Sethvir face to face?
If she has, it would have been in the five books before Peril's Gate. After all, Sethvir spent the better part of three books prostrate in Althain Tower until Asandir got the assistance of Davien and Seshkrozchiel with the grimwards:
Peril's Gate, Traitor's Knot, and Stormed Fortress
Now, if I weren't so lazy, I would go back to CoTM through GC and look for myself....