Archive through September 09, 2005

Janny Wurts Chat Area: General Discussion: The relationship of Davien and the F7: Archive through September 09, 2005
   By Rhett Jones on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 04:29 pm: Edit Post

From Peril's Gate I get the feeling that Davien is no longer discorporate. He seems to be the one FS who can think out of the box. On a side note I wonder how powerful Arithon is compared against a Fellowship Sorceror. I hope that Janny doesn't kill off Arithon, perhaps he could return to his splinter world as a new FS, immortal.


   By Trys on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 06:12 pm: Edit Post

Welcome to the board, Rhett.

I'd suggest that Davien is both 'not discorporate' and 'discorporate'. What that really means, is up for conjecture. But given what he used to do (Five Centuries Fountain, Kewar Tunnel) I'd guess that he still wanted to be able to do that and so he found a solution.


   By Rurack on Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - 07:41 pm: Edit Post

Boy going to drag this tread out of the depths. Read all of the post's(that took me a while) and decided to throw in a couple of points. I think I'm going to be flayed for this comment but here goes.

Davien saved Pavaria. He is not a betrayer he is a saint.

Now to discuss my point. For everything I have read, I seem to be the only one on his side fully.
Mistwraith was created by the exiles through a gate made by not Davien but other of the F7. Asandir says in SoM that those who were exiled for creating things such as black powder were sent through south gate. The F7 gave them an option exile or forget the knowledge. for the s'brydion it was forget or never leave again.


So here comes the mistwraith. The clans are sent to fight it off they are dying one by one including the Pavarians. So Davien does the unthinkable he causes the rebellion. Why? Think here! He set of a huge chain of events. It causes Dakar to have a this vision. Four princes were sent through west gate in which Davien just happened to have created the five centuries fountain. Hmm the two remaining princes drink out of it on their way back. Traithe seals off the south gate a tremendious cost to himself. He sacrifices himself in all actuallity. For what is a sorcerer if he has no powers? Mortal.When have we ever heard of the F7 willingly sacrifice him/herself before this event? Both kharadmon and luhaine become discorparate but truely very little harm comes to them after all they have the power to have stopped their bodies from being killed instead they choose not to harm anyone. And what is one of the downfalls the Pavarians use this along with the mistwraith to leave the continent. Hmm? Did the pavarians come to realize that they were actually hindering reality? After all they were brought about to curb the drake's dreams correct? Don't know but it is something to chew over.


Davien created rockfell pit. To not only house the Mistwraith but also and I quote out of the glossary "harmfull entities throughout all three ages." He creates this test in which Arithon is the only one to survive and he comes out alive and healed. And his compassion can never be used as a crutch again. He will be able to use it for what is was meant to be.

The others never sent him into exile. He chooses it willingly for one reason. His "Friends" and I use that tearm very loosely needed to come to the realization of "why" he did it on their own. wounds were just too fresh. Sethvir is the only one to keep in contact with him in any way shape or form. And yes Davien seems cocky. But look at the biger picture. If you go back and look at only the chapters in which the F7 deal with mortals they all seem cocky. They never show weakness to anyone outside of their group. We have just been blessed (?) with seeing the men behind the mask. We have yet to see Davien around the other members of F7. I mean if you want arrogance look at what sethvir does when the Koriani come to get the Great Waystone. That is still one of my favorite chapters!!

They all remember what they did in their past. they killed WORLDS with no second thought. They had to have known sorcery, or else the drakes would have never brought them, but their primary weapon was not magical in nature but rathe mechanical. Or So I like to "assume" from the hints our great author has sent us. They want to redeem themselves but humanity as a whole would not progress. So Davien sets up this whole set up that shows humanity the terrors that lurk within themselves if they do not change. I beg everyone co back and reread the very first thing Janny wrote in this series. If the F7 where around they would have no need to cast auguries(sp) they would just know. If the Clans were around they would not have forgotten. If the Koriani where still around it would still be imprinted on the waystone. The Pavarians are imortal, or just about, they could have told everone what happened.


In my opion this story revolves not around the two princes but rather Paravia as a whole and humanity. Forceing them to see their faults and becoming Pavrian in nature. To step up and shoulder the resposiblities of the planet instead of just themsevels. To become Ath's new chosen.

That is why Davien is a savior. None of it could have happen without him.

wow I rambled a bit.
Have fun tearing me apart
Davien for teh win!!!


   By Hannah on Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - 09:00 pm: Edit Post

It just seems very strange, the whole set-up of the rebellion. Davien's motives could hardly be so simplistic that we could just put two and two together, I think. It's not going to be cut and dry. It's not going to be Davien is the martyred saint and the rest of the F7 are just holding him back.

These are all brilliant geniuses. It's difficult for me to conceive of what his motive is that could not be understood by the others. In other words, what did he know that they didn't? Is he smarter than all the other 6 sorcerers put together? I find that hard to believe.

And furthermore (this has always been the primary question in my mind), if he knew something was going to happen, or something needed to happen to save humanity in the distant future, why would he not share this info with his colleagues? I can't imagine someone with his millenia of experience actually taking the road of martyr for his mysterious cause.

Maybe he was just playing fast and loose with the LotMB and didn't want to incriminate the others. But he could not actually violate that law, could he? He's bound to it.


   By Blue on Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - 11:14 pm: Edit Post

Wow, Rurack, interesting chain of interpretation about Davien and his motivations! I never quite thought of it as you did in your post above.

I think Davien foresaw SOME threat, whatever it may be, to the Paravians and the Land and acted, perhaps without his usual amount of forethought, and it spun out of control, much like the Havens did for Arithon. Maybe it was something he had to put into action quickly, it spun out of control, led to the rebellion, and his being rendered discorporate, and his own self exile.

As Hannah says in her post above, all of the F7 members are geniuses. But there is more than one type of genius. Someone may be brilliant at puzzles, as Davien obviously is, good at mathematices, magic, music, etc. There was something about Davien's particular BRAND of genius [and the puzzle interest is only one aspect of it] that prompted him to see a threat the other F7 Sorcerers missed.


   By Róisín on Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - 03:05 am: Edit Post


quote:

In my opion this story revolves not around the two princes but rather Paravia as a whole and humanity. Forceing them to see their faults and becoming Pavrian in nature. To step up and shoulder the resposiblities of the planet instead of just themsevels




I agree with this. Although all the focus is on the main characters, every person, right down to the minor characters has moments of epiphany - even the dying soldiers that Arithon helped in Kewar Tunnel - not only was Arithon restored, they were too.

The compact is so restrictive, I sometimes feel as I read, suffocated by the constraints on behalf of the characters! Davien actions are, I think, a combination of hunch and knowledge - the gambler's toss but in a strategic way.

But mostly, the story is redemptive, no matter how harsh or impossible the situation, there is always a way out - one just has to find it. Arithon made his own life a living hell - skewed by the mistwraithe - by justifying death as an answer to war. Now he's mastered it, and chosen a different path. Everyone has that option - even Elaira - and I suspect - even the F7. And the individual choices can add up to collective freedom.

Mandela, for example, chose not to use violence any longer, and he was one of the founders of the guerilla arm of the ANC. That choice still reverberates through South Africa today. I wonder what choices the Atherians will make...


   By Rurack on Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - 10:23 am: Edit Post

Blue you've hit part of my point. Janny has said would chose which sorcerer at her back based upon what situation she was in. I truely belive he saw something that the others missed. But I believe that the majority of the F7 were blinded by there love of the pavarians to support Davien's plan and he knew this. That is why he went awol on this one. He risked there ire not just to propel humanity to the next level but also F7 themselves. They are tired of being humanitites babysitters. They love athera but sometimes you just want to smack your friends when they are being nimrods! Correct! Like I said before, when has the F7 ever sacrificed anything. And in the matters of months three of them were forced to make a very heafty sacrifice. After all the have been God-like in power for aeons.

Oh Hannah I'm sure there is something that I am missing in Davien's mind. I still do not nor can I grasp,at this point, what caused the rebellion. What caused the "vision" i have know Idea. What was the catylist. Hardly to try and sometimes the answer is right in front of us and we choise not to see it simply because it CAN NOT BE THAT SIMPLE.

Now I don't think Davien saw the whole picture. That he did not have a book in manual in front of him that told him what to do. But look at it this way. His works apear to be so random. He creates a prison. He also creates something to test the mettle of the person who enters. Something that extends the life to 500 years. They play some part in it I just have no idea what.
WHY WHY WHY???


arg my brain hurts


   By Hellcat on Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - 11:54 am: Edit Post

Rurack,

Nice to have you on board,new people new way of looking at things.

I think the idea of Davien formenting the rebelion to force mankind (specifically the towns) into evovling into a more Athera aware state is a good one. Without the High Kings \clans there is no buffer between Townsmen and Paravians the Townsmen would need to evolve to cope with the mysteries. The current idea amongst the clans and F7 seems to be that Townsmen cannot withstand Parvian grace. I'm not sure I agree with that, each human SHOULD have that limitless potential for dealing with that state of mind, just that the potential is not easy to furfil without the added help of your bloodline and inborn nature.

Rurcak's idea also fits with Davien's comment that the rebellion was another form of the Havens for him. Davien aimed to bring humanity closer to the Paravians, instead the parvains were forced to leave.

Hellcat


   By James A. Messick on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 02:55 pm: Edit Post

You know... I have to ask. What are the fellowship of the Seven working towards? I know of only two things. They are to ensure Paravian survival at all costs and that humanity were allowed on athera by sufferance of the F7. In order to ensure Paravian survival they know that eventually, if humanity doesn't change, that they will have to cause a mass extinction of them on athera once more. As I read I find that Arithon is not only the F7's chance at being whole again but also the chance that he could fulfill the Drake's directive. If so then he is definitely the enemy of false truth and is just as complicated if not more so than davien. You know... I have to wonder if Davien and Arithon are related somehow? Davien seems to have a ranging sort of sight as if somehow he has a version of Sethvir's Earthsense in a way. You'd almost think that he can see or sense cruxes of the future where a decision can turn something around... his way of sidetracking the avalanche with a pebble i guess? Yet he has never interfered with free choice... he gave the townsmen a choice and they took it revealing the nature of humans at that moment and the fact that their loyalty to the crown system was flawed because at the first uprising in the rush to grab what they percieved as their destiny they would destroy grace. In fact you might say that the Koriani Order sort of is the townsmen form back then because of their spite and chafing against the strictures of the compact.

I think i burnt out and lost my train of thought now...


   By neilw on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 10:10 am: Edit Post

Davien and Arithon are both innovative...

The drake binding is for paravian survival...humans are that "threat" to survival and Arithon will likely be obliged to find a way for humanity to no longer be a threat...F7 try to foster enlightenment but the land is first hence paravian survival...

The F6 seem to think that the kingdoms are the current solution and that one day...all will be well...Davien disagreed about it's stability as a solution...

The mistwraith has made the situation worse
...since the paravians are off the scene hidden somewhere and Traithe is hampered / Ciladas "lost"...


   By Susan Canterbury on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 08:31 pm: Edit Post

The F7 or at least F6 felt responsible for the homeless plight of humanity's refugees. After all it was they were the cause of it. In order to give humanity a home on Athera the F7 had to agree to keep the Drake's binding to insure the survival of the Paravians. The Compact was made to allow the humans to settle Athera. We know Davien didn't agree with the Compact and that the other's aren't comfortable knowing that if the Compact fails the Drake's binding will take hold of them and they will be powerless to stop themselves from destroying humanity once again. There lies the crux of their sorrow-that to save humanity they had to agree to possibly destroy it in the future. We know that F6 believe that to save the Compact they need the F7 restored. Yet, Davien holds himself apart and Ciladis is lost to them. Dakar's Black Rose Prophecy is their slim hope of success.

I don't think Davien was trying to bring the townfolk closer to the Paravians. It seems that only the purer bloodlines can withstand their presence and mixed blood has less chance of success. Davien's motives are still unclear, but the thread in another area seems possible-that Davien is trying to raise a new High King-Arithon. But knowing Janny, that line of thinking could be seriously wrong.

Davien believes the Compact is doomed to failure, but he also does not want to be used as an instrument of destruction which he will be as he is bound by the Drakes like the others of the Fellowship. So it only makes sense that whatever he is doing has to be something he thinks in the long-term will strength the Compact even though the F6 feel what he has done has weakened it.

Does any of this make sense?


   By neilw on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 03:03 am: Edit Post

SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER

From Dakar's comments at the end of TK with Davien, Dakar (albeit upset at the time...and I may be stretching a point...) accuses D of having plotted to *kill* the high blood lines...

If this was his plan and if he had succeeded would this have destroyed the compact and enforced humanities destruction? Or would cathdeinen have been crowned?


   By Andy on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 09:42 am: Edit Post

Slight Spoilers follow.


While the F7 want to stop living under the constant threat of having to eradicate humanity from the face of Athera to ensure Paravian survival (see Davien & Sethvir's colloquy), and accepting the fact that "it's always been about Paravian survival," I can't help but think that Davien (and the others) long for a time after they are released from the dragons' terrible binding. In other words, if Paravian survival is ensured -- in perpetuity -- then conceivably the F7 would be free, even to pass the Wheel if that is their desire. I suspect that Davien's motivations -- while still unclear -- and his plans for Arithon may go farther than simply fixing an imperfect Compact, but may aim to fix the F7's dilemma. I seem to recall (whether from the books or Janny's FAQ) that after a long battle against the drake-spawn that spanned the length of an entire Age, having won the battle and saved the Paravians, the F7 were looking forward to a long awaited respite, only to find the remnants of humanity knocking on their doorstep. By advocating for humanity's immigration and standing as surety for humankind, the F7 (maybe unknowningly) extended the duration of the drake's mandate. This apparently "chaffed" Davien more than the rest.

By the way, I couldn't help but chuckle during TK (or was it PG) when Davien responded with dead pan understatement when either Elaira or Arithon with some surprise commented on his widely-reported state of being discorporate: (paraphrasing) "I found the experience to be somewhat [undesirable or unacceptable]." I can only imagine his frustration for the first couple centuries before he figured out the discorporate/corporate trick. Kind of reminds me of that Farside cartoon with the two cows sitting on the porch while a telephone between them rings and rings, and one of them says: "And here we are sitting here without opposable thumbs."


   By Susan Canterbury on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 03:26 pm: Edit Post

SPOILERS SPOILER SPOILERS


I agree. It was written that they looked forward to the end of the drakes' binding when humanity showed up. It seems to me Davien wants released from the binding and is searching for way to end it.

As for Dakar believing Davien wanting to kill the bloodlines-we have all seen Dakar frequently misunderstood things and the F7 do not always correct him.


   By Sean Monahan on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 06:31 pm: Edit Post

Spoilers, I think

Actually, they defeated most of the drakespawn, and weren't in a hurry to finish off the rest, like the Methuri. I think it was said that Traithe hoped to study them. After a while (hundred years or more, maybe?), humanity showed up.


   By Auna on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 07:43 pm: Edit Post

yes...

Sadly, if they had hurried up, they would have been done.


   By fhcbandmom on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 08:17 pm: Edit Post

Anybody think there is any connection to Davien refering to Arithon as a "falcon" (with several different adjectives applied)and the falcon being the "old" device of Shand?

(and for a real stretch - along with the falcon was a crescent moon - doesn't Davien's ring have a crescent shape design?)


   By neilw on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 03:00 am: Edit Post

SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER

It was Ciladis who hope to redeem the methuri; not traithe ;-) ...iirc...

As for the falcon I feel it is that Arithon is capable of "freedom" of seeing the "helicopter view" of society and the planet and that he can *see* and is extremely gifted...Davien also refers to him as a weapon...it's metaphorical banter at the end of PG (I think?)

Davien chooses to be an eagle...maybe he sees character attributes in Arithon (albeit as a lesser mortal power) that he values in himself.

Sethvir comments that Davien cares too much.

Susan,

I agree that Dakar is often mistaken. He is becoming more fluent in his powers but yes I agree that killing the royal bloodlines is not likely the precise goal of the uprising...

But presumably a townborn leader would suffer in the presence of the paravians and could not be expected to perceive sufficiently enough to be able to uphold the compact...would this imply that all humans would have to be shipped off Athera or that the F7 would need to design a replacement ("2nd choice") possibility that Davien considered more stable?


   By Thom on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 09:52 am: Edit Post

Perhaps,

What davien, thru Arithon.....and what Janny, by extension wants is for ALL humans to evolve enough to withstand and to VALUE the paravians and the world they live in.

I would like to believe that this is where we are heading and we know janny likes to open our eyes to our own world while also letting us enjoy a great story.


   By Susan C on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 04:08 pm: Edit Post

SPOILERS

SPOILERS

SPOILERS

We know the townborn go mad or can die when faced with a Paravian. Sulfin Evend states that Hanshire kept the old knowledge and we know their were archives in Erdane. But most townspeople have no memory of why the Compact was made. They lost the history. The Uprising took place, correct me if I'm wrong, after the Paravians had left. They felt constrained by the Compact and saw the Clanborn as an obstacle to what they wanted. We also know humans who violated the Compact or could not keep it were shipped through the south gate and they created and were consumed by the Mistwraith. Where would humanity be sent off world? We know Davien was against the Compact and instigated the Uprising.

It doesn't make sense to me that Davien wanted to mix the townborn and clanborn to make all humans able to withstand the Paravians. It takes more than that to keep the Compact. Can you see the townborn serving the land?

Is it possible that Davien like the Paravians figured out the mystery of the Mistwraith? If so, why would he withhold it from the others.

Davien definitely has a purpose and goal in mind. Arithon figures greatly in it. I agree when he refers to Arithon as a weapon, he is referring to it metaphorically not as a physical, killing weapon. But where is he aiming Arithon exactly............


   By Thom on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 06:25 pm: Edit Post

The townspeople will eventually have to come to grips with the paravians. Even if the mistwraith is defeated....in another hundred years the same issues and tensions will still exist. And from reading a lot of janny's post..one of her main themes is that people can change and evolve for the better and i can see her trying, thru the story, to get people to understand this.


   By neilw on Friday, September 09, 2005 - 03:03 am: Edit Post

If humanity stays on Athera they have to learn and be willing to look after the land... 5000 years ought to be longer enough to develop this kind of thing, no?!? How long does it take

I think that a long term plan from the Fellowship cannot be to maintain the kingdoms indefinitely...Davien states they are unstable and they are certainly not giving the Fellowship a chance to be free.

The F7 are bound but have they foreseen a long term solution where they are free? Davien believes that long-term failure is inevitable under the present conditions...Asandir hints that the F7 see "failure" as possible since the Mistwraith...

Looking forward to SF ;-)