Thoughts on Lysaer..

Janny Wurts Chat Area: General Discussion: Thoughts on Lysaer..
   By Hunter on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 05:28 pm: Edit Post

I had a few thoughts on the Shining Avatar come to rescue Athera from eternal Darkness, he with the unstained hands and clothes, Mr. Teflon himself, the Unbearable Lightness of Lysaer.

Two main thoughts:

1. The prevailing thought seems to be once freed from the Curse, that Lysaer will transform into a fundamentally changed individual, repentant for his sins and one who would seek to redress his past damage on Athera. Based on the evidence from the books and Lysaer's actions, the Curse didn't have to make a huge effort to fan Lysaer's existing prejudices and hatred, all it had to do was guide Lysaer, the anger and pride was already there. In the review of Lysaer's aura that Sethvir and Traithe do at Althain after Lysaer is cast out of the compact, the conclusion they reach is that Lysaer's faults are primarily his own fuelled by the Curse.. not the Curse run rampant over an innocent bystander.

All of which, to my mind, means that the difference between a Cursed Lysaer and an unCursed Lysaer may not be that much. Lysaer has shown repeatedly during the series, including two key examples in TK, a woeful lack of perspective and understanding of his actions.

The second issue is in regards to Lysaer's use of his powers to kill and immolate items. In Curse, Arithon performed an unbinding spell on the arrow meant for Jieret, this rebounded on Arithon big time and he lost access to his mage capabilities as a direct result. Lysaer has spent a long time learning how to turn arrows into flying dust, ostensibly to protect himself. Although Lysaer doesn't subscribe to the Law of the Major Balance and being cast out of the Compact could reasonably be expected to neither know nor follow it, my thinking is that the immolation of the arrows should be a clear transgression of the same law that should rebound upon Lysaer, yet it does not.

Or is the fine point difference between Unbinding and utter destruction in Elemental Light the key factor here?

   By Maurice Peter Vialle on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 06:38 pm: Edit Post

Lysaer burns things, changing them to ashes.
Not at all the same as unbinding, causing something to not exist.

   By Adam John Bradbury on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 06:52 pm: Edit Post


On your second issue, about Lysaer's ability to immolate people and items, I think the point to remember is that Lysaer has never been mage trained. Although he would have the potential, being clan-born and all, he has never been formally trained, and so does not possess mage-sight, nor is he bound by the Law of Major Balance. He is using his powers of Elemental Light to kill and destroy.
Arithon, on the other hand, was trained, and was acting as a mage when he Unbound the arrow, causing the death of the town-born archer. It was the result of his misusing his mage skills, and his gifts of compassion/foresight, that led to the blinding of his mage sight. Even so, his mastery over Elemental Shadow was unaffected.
I wonder if it is possible that Lysaer has perhaps blinded his own potential for mage-sight by his destructive actions without realising his loss, but is free to continue to act as his mastery over Elemental Light will always remain?

On your first point, whilst the difference between a Cursed Lysaer and an unCursed Lysaer may be small, whilst cursed Lysaer will remain unable to change his point of view, and so is trapped, perhaps willingly, on his path. If Lysaer is ever freed from the Mistwraiths Curse, the potential for growth will be returned, allowing Lysaer the ability to change the direction of his life. Even so, that wont mean that Lysaer will ever choose to change.
Just thought I'd add my two cents.

Cheers Adam
Adelaide, Australia

   By Andrew Ginever on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 08:22 pm: Edit Post


To add my 2c worth into this discussion, I'd hazard to say that Lysaer does suffer the backlash and consequences of his own _bad??_ decisions (even if untrained, self-blinded, or uncaring enough to worry about it) and that there may well be consequences but we might need to wait for a Paravian return to see that.

I'd refer you to a certain scene from TK where the impact of Lysaer's misrule is explained in the bigger scheme of things, but this isn't a spoiler thread :-)

On another matter of interest, since we're discussing Lysaer: Are there are devout Lysaer fans out there who believe he's "in the right" in his course of action throughout the series and needs to catch up with Arithon one of these days? (Sooner rather than later?)

   By Cheryl Detmer on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 10:17 pm: Edit Post

haha Hunter on Mr. Teflon himself. That's priceless and so true. To answer your question from my view Andrew, A huge, huge NO on being a Lysaer fan. lol but I do hope he is saved in the end and have sympathy for him where I know some don't anymore. I think that is what I hope happens. I think I did read somewhere here that someone did favor Lysaer.

   By Annettevk on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 10:22 pm: Edit Post

Andrew: My response to your question; NO!!!!! Definitely not. Lysaer is wrong with a capitol W as far as I am concerned. He has had chances to change his ways and ask for help and he has refused because he absolutely refuses to take responsibility for his actions. He would rather think that everything that he has done has been Arithon's fault. It will be very hard, if not impossible, for him to come to terms with himself, I think, if he ever does come to realize the error of his ways and want to repent. But we will see. Janny always keeps us in suspense until the last possible moment, and sometimes later, so we won't know if he is going to even get to the point of coming face to face with his shortcomings. I hope so though. That would be a very powerful and emotion filled scenario. I can see a couple of kleenex boxes in my future if this scene is ever written. Anyway that is my 3 cents (inflation eh?).

   By Trys on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 05:03 am: Edit Post


He has had chances to change his ways and ask for help and he has refused because he absolutely refuses to take responsibility for his actions.

As we saw in Kewar Tunnel, Arithon was manipulated in little ways by the Curse... in ways we didn't even think to notice at the time they were happening. I suspect that the Curse is doing much the same to Lysaer and that he is trapped beyond the ability to make such a decision. He nearly did it in Althain Tower and suddenly, with a fair amount of vehemence if memory serves, rejected the F7's help. I think that was the Curse kicking in.


   By Hunter on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 11:06 am: Edit Post



Even in the Ath's Adepts hostel in Shaddorn this was the case. He was being swayed by the power of the hostel and then snapped as the Curse kicked in.

The two specific events in TK when the Curse turns Lysaer into the mouth foaming idiot we saw Arithon become at times such as at Werpoint show perhaps that Lysaer is starting to get an inkling that not everything he does is purely driven by himself. Whether he can resist the curse is another question.

Perhaps Davien should invite Lysaer down into Kewar?

   By Trys on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 11:42 am: Edit Post


Personally I think that would be Lysaer's undoing. I don't think he'd survive the passage. Arithon survived because of some outside intervention, I don't know who or what would do that for Lysaer.


   By Hunter on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 03:34 pm: Edit Post


I have a thought he could almost walk through Kewar unscathed. Arithon (and presumably Kamridian before him) struggled to reconcile the horror of what they'd done with their compassionate nature and the thought of being responsible for some carnage and deaths.

Given his current state of mind, Lysaer doesn't lose sleep over the 50,000 odd people killed in his various campaigns, not to mention the clansmen killed by headhunters and the deliberate targetting of Maenelle and Dhirken for example. Given no foothold of a divided and troubled conscience, it's possible Kewar may have little impact on Lysaer - he believes he's morally right to have done what he did so doesn't entertain the possibilities he may be wrong.

I still think Lysaer at some stage has to face the shade of his mother to get her view of what happened when she left Amroth and ended up in Karthan and Avar's arms. Much of Lysaer's upbringing was a result of her actions and his father's response.

   By Trys on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 05:51 pm: Edit Post

I don't think Kewar would 'use' the same tactics on Lysaer as it did with Kamridian and Arithon... not to mention I don't think we know what was the crisis that Kamridian couldn't face. Was it a crisis of compassion?

I would expect Kewar to challenge Lysaer with issues of Justice so intense, personal and poignant that he might not survive.


   By Auna on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 06:18 pm: Edit Post

I thought Kewar was strictly for the compassionate line since it was the most risky to have in a ruler. I recall a passage stating that someone with no life experience could just walk through the place and not be bothered. I think Lysaer could breeze through because he's already justified all his actions to himself as necessary.

If Kewar could be used for Justice, Lysaer wouldn't make it because his gift got scewed out of true when Asandir had to remove the wraith from him when he first got possessed.

I think it's pretty clear the curse has to go before Lysaer has a chance at changing. He's in so deep though, I'm not sure he'd be willing to change even without the curse due to his character flaws.

   By Nora on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 10:38 pm: Edit Post

I don't think there are any hard-core "Lysaer is totally right" fans out there, but the fact that there is just no way that there could be actually bothers me sometime. For all the discussion of multiple viewpoints and no monopoly on truth, there's still no question, in my mind, that Arithon is The Genuine Hero of the series, for all his faults. I don't think any reader sees Lysaer's side as the heroic one, and at times it feels like the issues he represents get a short shrift. You all may disagree, but it itches at me every once in a while.

   By neil on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 04:29 am: Edit Post

I guess as readers we are priviliged to see the minority as well as majority views...Arithon does make "mistakes" - he is human - but I suppose that he has the moral high ground (so far!) in this story even though the vast majority of humanity on Athera would disagree.

The first test (much the longest part in PG) in
Kewar is a challenge testing ability to rule. The person is exposed to all the unresolved issues in their life. They will pass judgement on themselves from an external perspective. If one cannot judge oneself fairly, having seen and anlysed "both sides" how can one be expected to rule fairly?

I think "Kewar stuff" is in the FAQ.

Kamridien died because he "stopped looking for answers" and his "compassion didn't save him" .

Arithon is very innovative but also honest. He was able to bring himslf to forgive himself and accept that he had merit to survive. He *accepted* absolution. Davien reminded him that guilt solves very little....

Lysaer, I suspect, does feel guilt but continues from perceived necessity. I suspect that exposed to the conequences of his actions in Kewar, he would not survive.

   By Trys on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 05:07 am: Edit Post


He was able to bring himslf to forgive himself and accept that he had merit to survive.

And he had help. :-)

   By Laurence J Johnson on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 06:37 pm: Edit Post

Hello Everyone, I have posted my opinion of Lysaer before, I also suggested a cure for him.


To be fair to this character which Janny portrays so well, he was raised as a prince and heir to a throne and therefor filled with princely pride and arrogance.

His upbringing seems cold to me, this may be due to the fact that he was raised without a mother.

So in some ways he is a victim of circumstance!

He has much to answer for but he is not a hopeless case.

He may be saved by being exposed to multiple Paravian Presence, Sethvir and co., may also contribute, they also have much to atone for!

I reckon that Arithon's compassion will also play a part.

Will the loving and enlightened way of Ath's Adepts also help to rid the half brothers of the curse?



   By Blue on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 10:02 pm: Edit Post

With all of the points the Vikingson brings up, I wonder how soon it will be before Lysaer appears on an American daytime talk show and blames his behavior on his upbringing?

I think Jerry Springer would freak out to have someone as dysfunctional as Lysaer on his show. :-O

Seriously, though, Laurence, good points. Humility is something Lysaer has no experience with. I still say he is the poster boy for denial, which seems to go hand in hand with arrogance and pride.

"I did not do wrong in that instance; I was unfairly attacked."

   By max on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 03:59 am: Edit Post

I really feel that if there were a press they would all be on Lysaer's side. I just watched two members of the press beat up on the little snowboarder in the Olympics because she fell on the last part of the course and lost the gold. And they were scrawney gnarly old dudes too!! I think the press would fawn all over Lysaer... but when I first started reading this series, I started with Peril's Gate. I felt at that time I would happily have slapped Arithon and all his cohorts. It looked to me as if they were all just pissed off about not being royalty and not being allowed to throw their royal butts around. I felt the town born were justified in fighting off their rule. And I had to eat alot of words for judging so quickley. I kept reading about Vastmark and Tal Quorin and realized I was missing a great big part of the picture. So I finally went back to the beginning. My instincts for judging people are very poor!! I can tell by looking and listening how their health is but that is all. I feel we are missing a bigger picture of Lysaer yet that may come in the future books. I thought for sure Kevor would find a way to compassion for his father but all his compassion is for his mother. She does deserve it but Kevor is supposed to be an Ath adept and able to see into people. So I wonder if he is still angry over his father's supposed detached parenting or if he has seen the true nature of his father and finds him beyond redemption. time will tell [smiling at ya]

   By Trys on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 08:00 am: Edit Post


If that's the snowboarder I think it is, didn't she showboat (jump up in the air and grab her board as though she was doing half-pipe) in the last part of the course, lose her balance and fall on her 'face'? Or did the press get that wrong? I didn't see the competition and can't comment on it myself.


but Kevor is supposed to be an Ath adept and able to see into people. So I wonder if he is still angry over his father's supposed detached parenting

If he was, I don't think he'd be an Adept. Just my opinion.


   By Laurence J Johnson on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 01:37 pm: Edit Post

Hello one and all, Lysaer is also leading a military campaign, so to him as to many other Generals etc., it is acceptable to sacrifice thousands of lives if this means that they win the war.

The character which Lysaer currently has, is that of the cold hearted and blinkered Royal, he reminds me of a song by the Rolling Stones, which is called, SYMPATHY FOR THE DEVIL!

So will Lysaer receive redemption?

This is an intriguing SAGA!


   By max on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 03:28 am: Edit Post

Hi all, this doesn't belong in this thread so be patient with me, I am not tech savvy. Trys I saw the competition that little snowboarder fell because I happened to not be sleeping that night. I didn't see her grab her board, but she did slam her heels down and the back edge of the board appeared to land first and then slip. however I will say I could have missed it. but those vultures/journalists were all over her like dead meat. those commentators really spoil watching the olympics for me. their mouths never stop like they were out their doing it themselves. my feeling on the matter are this. they are not covering the sport, they are there to put their big mouths out there so that they are heard and seen and it takes away from the event, the athletes, and the whole pleasurable spirit of friendly competition which I in my naive way thought was the purpose of the olympics. sorry if I insulted journalist fans out there, I know there must be some good ones that don't showboat but they appear to be rare indeed. Lysaer has that Hollywood quality the press loves. [grinning at ya]

   By Trys on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 05:17 am: Edit Post


From your description what happened could have been simple loss of balance and maybe this isn't the same snowboarder.

I know what you mean about commentators. My favorite part of the Winter Olympics is ice skating and often times, to quote my dear mother, the commentators mouths 'go like a gobble goose's ass'. I realize that maybe not every viewer is as familiar with the sport as I and I can't tell a lutz from a flutz... but then I don't need to in order to enjoy the performances.


   By Blue on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 11:41 am: Edit Post

To me, the ice skating judges always sound like a pack of bitter, whiny, fat ass has-beens.

Back on subject, I wonder how insufferable Lysaer would be, even without the Curse. Would he have been a nice guy (as we, the readers might have defined the term) or would he still have been a twit?

Arithon, love that little green eyed cutie though I do, would probably get slapped more than once, due to sheer bad attitude.

   By Bec on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 09:49 pm: Edit Post


Hi all

I think having Elaira present through Kewar went a long way to helping Arithon make it through. He couldn't stop because it would have meant her death. At one stage (from memory) even that wasn't enough but then he had other help (as Trys said) from soul's (for want of a better word) whom he had helped. Lysaer doesn't have that intimate contact with anyone at present. This is partly due to the curse, but also the necromancers have had influence on him either directly or indirectly through his closest "friends" (although I don't think he actually has any real friends at the moment - except Sulfin). The whole necromancer issue took me totally by surprise, I had noticed the mentions of necromancers in the lead up to TK, but never expected what happened. I have to wonder when their influence on Lysaer actually started. I should say that I actually find it hard to like Lysaer (I am not into blondes!), but if you look at the story from his perspective Arithon and the clans have done some really appalling things, and if they hadn't happened Lysaer would not have had to take the action he did (his sense of Justice HAS been warped by the curse). We have also seen, on several occasions, Lysaer questioning his beliefs and wondering if he has made the right decisions - however the curse comes into effect pretty quickly and stamps these feelings down. Would he survive Kewar? I don't think so, he could not escape the influences of the curse and I think he would find it impossible to face the consequences that have occurred due to the warping of his sense of justice. Just my opinion of course :-)


   By beth on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 01:28 pm: Edit Post

I don't think Lysaer would be able to withstand Kewar for one simple act. That would be what he did to Talia. At no point in his treatment of her was Justice being served. Hard to tell whether it was the curse, outside influence by 'friends' or just his own jealousy but he did not treat her right. I think that one event would doom him more than anything else. It is also one of the main reasons I dislike him so much.

Much of the fighting and such I can dismiss as being curse related. However, his treatment of the love of his life I can't really tie to anything but his own personality.


   By neil on Thursday, February 23, 2006 - 04:50 am: Edit Post


When Arithon "meets" his father in Kewer, he is reminded that to "condemn himself in this place is death" or something like that...

I wonder whether the oath sworn to F7 *to live* had an affect here or whether Arithon's self-worth was enough. It seems he was still at risk until the parvian told him to cast off the idea that he was "helpless", accept human error as just that and to deny the paravian's viewpoint if he dared.

Lyaser's treatment of Talith:

Unfair from her perspective, we saw, but from Lysaer's, he did not trust her. He imprisoned her, yes but then she was did what she did...Lysaer must have been shocked...then things were taken out of his I'm not sure about Talith (Lysaer *did* love her...still...not a great result for everyone)

If challenged to enter, would he enter or would he not trust the sorceror's construct to play fairly? I suspect all sorcery that is not done by his team is now suspect...

   By Trys on Thursday, February 23, 2006 - 05:02 am: Edit Post

But what did Talith do that resulted in Lysaer distrusting her? Get captured by his enemy? I don't think that's enough in and of itself. I think this was the Curse in full blown action because Arithon was involved.


   By neil on Thursday, February 23, 2006 - 07:10 am: Edit Post

She expressed doubt about Lysaer/Arithon conflict and whether it was Lysaer's face ;-)

It's the curse at play here, so is Lysaer "guilty" in this particular case? It's just a disaster what happened after to her but the cabal was the corruption...Lysaer still holds the moral high ground being unfortunately ignorant of the nasty people around him at the time...who might not be so nasty is ever we get their perspective?

As an aside, I wonder what the origin of necromancy is...did it develop in it's present form on Athera due to increasing environmental frequency...or did it exist before humans arrived.

   By Blue on Thursday, February 23, 2006 - 03:26 pm: Edit Post

Mild spoilers.

Take this theory, as usual, with a grain of salt.

I seem to remember that the people banished through South Gate were banished because they could/would not give up certain forms of technology/science, which were forbidden by the Compact.

Could some of that also have included experiments with magic to see about getting a handle on it scientifically?

"Okay, that guy from the Fellowship of Seven is talking about Grand Conjury. Obviously, he is using/manipulating energy, but how? What is the source?"

Suppose, for the sake of argument, a crude model of Grand Conjury became possible scientifically.

Like many scientific discoveries, it is something innocent in and of itself, but different applications are considered for using this new energy.

Gunpowder stands as an example. Magyre a harmless old scholar, used the gunpowder to amuse his grandchildren, with the pretty sparkles, pops and bangs, according to Asandir's story to the brothers s'Brydion in SoM.

However, OTHER applications occurred to people who read Magyre's work. Namely, the use of this "sparkle powder" as a weapon.

Pure speculation again, what if someone managed to get a good, working grasp of Grand Conjury, in a scientific fashion, and it was misused by either the scientist who discovered it, or someone who followed that work?

The Grand Conjury model is experimented with, perhaps "augmented" or otherwise twisted, and now a scientist has something to use against enemies, to enslave them beyond chains and shackles.

It seems that the Mistwraith came about this way, and it invaded Athera.

Now suppose there were people who did NOT want to abandon Athera, to go into exile through South Gate, and so, swore to avoid the science/experiments that led to the exile of the others. However, this group resented having to give up their experiments, and when the Mistwraith struck, took advantage of the chaos of the rebellion, and that the F7 were tied up, trying to keep up with Compact duty. The Koriani inadvertently aided and abetted, with that order's penchant for resentment against the F7, and the Koriani penchant for troublemaking.

The scientists left behind would have had incomplete scientific information, and so would have had to start from the beginning, and came up with something close to what the South Gate exiles used, only these folks, perhaps recognizing what the Mistwraith really was, and lacking the scientific facilities, used the knowledge they had to become a twisted magical order, a dark mirror of the F7, which we came to know as necromancers.

By dark mirror, I mean this:

The Fellowship of Seven represent free will, and the light and redemption of the Paravians. The necromancers represent enslavement, darkness, horror and damnation.

   By Beth on Thursday, February 23, 2006 - 04:54 pm: Edit Post

Well, given Lysaer is arrogant...maybe the snowboarder incident isn't too off-topic. :-) The snowboarder who fell and lost the gold deserved all the bad press. She was showing off at the end because she had a lead. She did some pointless stunt and landed wrong. All she had to do was make the final jump and cross the line. Instead she wanted to show off and it bite her in the butt.

It wasn't just that he imprisoned her. He lied to his people as to why she was away. He told them that Talia was upset about not getting pregnant. When he was having her secluded. Also at this point he had already decided that she wouldn't have his kids. That is harsh to do to someone you love. Also, he may not have ordered her death but he did nothing to stop it or investigate it. Nothing in her personality would have lead anyone to believe she would commit suicide, yet Lysear just believes what he is told. He is relieved and moves on.

The being angry with her/miss trust I can see as curse related, but his actions can not all be caused by the curse. At some point his love for her should have provided some counter action.


   By Róisín on Friday, February 24, 2006 - 01:34 am: Edit Post

On Lysaer - Talith - recall that Arithon nearly murdered Dakar and did end up mortally wounding Caolle in his fit of the curse, despite all his better training. Love at that point, was certainly not enough to hold back the tide. Dakar's stand in fact, provoked it.

   By Neil on Friday, February 24, 2006 - 04:23 am: Edit Post

Maybe the Kewar test for Talith/Lysaer rests on whether she would forgive him?

Which I presume he wouldn't ;-)

In Kewar, Lysaer would see what he put her through from her perspective. Would it break Lysaer? I don't think so.

The end is stll justifying the means for him. Perhaps, he'd write off this "tragic" consequence as a price he had to pay and move on to the next issue...

   By Róisín on Friday, February 24, 2006 - 08:23 am: Edit Post

Question for anyone: do you think if Lysaer stood on the threshold of Kewar genuinely wanting/needing the test - would it open for him? Or is it only for invited 'guests' of Davien?

   By Laurence J Johnson on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 11:06 am: Edit Post

Hello Róisín, I reckon that it would open for him, although his heart has to open first before he could even consider such a move.

Lysaer's is still the SPOILT PRINCE!

He is used to having his own way and is perfectly happy to delude himself and to pass the buck, take his treatment of his wife and her subsequent "MURDER" as an example of this attitude.

He is also vain, this becomes obvious when any other character starts to encroach on his domain or to steal any of the limelight.

LYSAER should not be trying to become KING as he is really more of a QUEEN!

Davien is an interesting character, his viewpoint differs from that of Sethvir and co..

I'm looking forward to seeing how his part develops, he may be more aware of the bigger picture.


   By juliana on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 10:59 pm: Edit Post

Lysaer deeply loved Talith- That point is made clear even in TK when Sulfin invokes her name to reach Lysaer in the dungeons of Avenor. If he did not have such an unyielding sense of justice- (and the mistwraith warping any thoughts where Arithon is concerned)his marriage would have been mended. This S'Illesid persuit of justice can be just as unreasonable and self defeating as the S'Flalenn geas of compassion.
Arithon's character is easily more likable but Lysaer is the one with the much longer journey of self discovery.
Kewar tunnel would be wasted on Lysaer at this point. The curse needs to be lifted before he can begin to take true ownership of his deeds. He has been given the chance of redemption through the F7, Ath's adepts, and the Centaur spirit- every time he stands on the precipice and backs away- what holds him him back when he yearns for the release?

   By Róisín on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 06:42 am: Edit Post

What holds him back, is guilt about duty - Arithon said it plainly to the F7 - Lysaer was raised to think that being a king meant sacrificing everything for the people - and that it is a weak King that asks for help.

That Arithon pointed that out to the F7, I thought, was interesting in itself.

Lysaer believes in the parental directive about Royal duty so much, he cannot conceive of personal freedom as anything but temptation away from true purpose. The release to him, is wrong and would be a failure.

He needs to learn to see the release as freedom - want it so badly he'll push through anything, or in this case - life will create harsher and harsher lessons that will try to show him the flaw in his beliefs - as with Lirenda.

I hesitate to label him - the F7, for all their knowledge, I think are missing the point. They just want him to play proper S'Illessid Royal.

   By juliana on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 01:38 pm: Edit Post

I agree that that Lysaer has this ingrained sense of duty. However it has been many years since he was Prince of Amroth. In Curse of the Mistwraith we see some of the hate and distrust of all things S'Falenn taught by his father weaken. THere are many examples when Lysaer begins to trust and even like Arithon. So I think Lysaer's upbringing in and of itself is only part of the reason.
What a shame he never had the opportunity to explore the spiritual aspect of the mysteries.It would have helped him to change his perception of duty and self sacrifice. He was raised with a black/white perspective coupled with an exaggerated sense of justice.

   By Trys on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 02:21 pm: Edit Post

I think Lysaer was denied Rauven training specifically because of how Lysaer's father treated his mother and perhaps generally because of how s'Illessid had been treating s'Ffallenn.


   By Hunter on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 03:42 pm: Edit Post

I thought it was more because the King of Amroth wanted to use his powers as a weapon against s'Ffalenn - which funnily enough Rauven wasn't that interested in supporting.

   By juliana on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 08:05 pm: Edit Post

I wonder how old Lysaer was when the request was made that he be trained at Rauven.Lysaer may have been too old for the Rauven mages to have a positive influence on him. I have a feeling the King did not want him to go when he was very young for fear he would not then yield to his father's wishes to use his gift as a weapon.

   By Hunter on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 10:56 pm: Edit Post

I wonder, given the intent of why Lysaer (or his father) wanted to be trained, whether Rauven would have sanctioned Lysaer for training whatever age he turned up?

   By Leonie on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 11:06 pm: Edit Post

Just a few thoughts on Lysaer. I've just started rereading CotM, and the things that have stood out most are Lysaer's constant self involvement and self deception. Even though he struggles with trying to (initially) understand his clan people, he still is unable to look at the reconciliation of towns and clans without self interest.

CotM page 252 (reprinted paperback bought in Australia) "The question hit hard. Driven to see into himself with uncanny depth and clarity, struck naked before his own judgement, Lysaer peceived that the confusion that had harried him since exile held a core of ugly truth. No longer did the glamour of noble purpose veil fact: that his brave resolve to Traithe in Althain's storeroom had been rooted in vanity and pride. He had renounced a difficult path of study and vowed instead to redress the wrongs of a kingdom for his own personal glory."

Immediately after this he avoids having to expose his feelings about Daon Ramon Barrens by making an excuse about leaving his heart behind on Dascen Elur.

Repeatedly we see not a character that is strong in its convictions, but one constantly torn to persistently make himself look good in front of other people - and constantly refusing to acknowledge his true inadequacies - even though acknowledgement of his true self would allow his true strengths to develop.

To me, Lysaer's character is about choice - yes Arithon has his moments of submission to the curse as well, but never willingly. Lysaer almost never chooses to resist the curse driven impulses, the habit of "I must look good" drives him even more constantly than the curse. Time after time we see his choices made for self interest and disguised as "the greater good".

   By Leonie on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 11:17 pm: Edit Post

I have my doubts that Lysaer would have been trained in Rauven or even perhaps if he would have coped with it. The descriptions of Arithon's training while in Kewar tunnel make me wonder if Lysaer could have coped with the discipline, control and honesty required.

I suspect the mages of Rauven would not have trained him simply because he was so much under his father's thumb anyway.

And on my last post - we see also in CotM that Lysaer has already popped up with major self deception in regard to his mother's motives for leaving - check out the bit when Arithon rummages through his memories for something to goad him with on their first meeting. He sees his father using violence against his mother, hears him deriding her, immediately after he hears her defending him from the abuses his father would force upon him. Yet we know despite this Lysaer focusses not on his father's obvious wrongs, but only the fact that his mother left him.

   By juliana on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 11:53 am: Edit Post

Remember that Lysaer was 3 years old when his mother left- she could have taken him with her to protect him from his father but she didn't.In his mind's eye he was abandoned by her and
left alone to deal with his father's rages. Where was the balance formally supplied by his mother's love?

   By Myranda on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 03:02 pm: Edit Post

I have a theory about Lysaer...

The curse has twisted and controlled almost every descision he has made, he's butched many, ordered the killings of more. He lacks the compassion of Arithon, but he DOES have the inbred sense of justice.

If he survives long enough to be rid of the curse, his sense of justice would mean he would have to destroy himself as an act of atonement and justice.

As such I don't think the Fellowship would try to break his curse, as thier actions would directly lead to his death. Instead I think they might try banishing him.

Oorrrr!!... Lysaer has lost every major war so far, he may have one small battles, but he has suffered wholesale defeat time after time after time. His people have a defensible city, they have great armies and they have the rule of law... they don't actually need Lysaer "alive". A martyr is just as powerful as a figurehead. With a careful PR campaign he could be offed with ease...
or mutilated and banished so no-one would recognise him - then he'd be free for the curse to drag him across Athera in a conflagration of fire and light and rage... How would Arithon and Lysaer fare against the curse face to face, with no armies to pull them apart? (Personally I think Arithon would triumph - grand conjoury and elemental power is likely to beat just elemental power.)

What though of magic? Lysaer may have been burnt by the touch of necromancy, but the curse is very strong, very subtle... And even on an even footing the two can't kill each other, but Arithon has a great advantage in his use of conjoury - its likely Lysaer would immolate himself without realising it.

Whatever the possibilities, I think Lysaer will have some VERY hard times soon - Janny has very cleverly painted a world where justice features strongly...

One Clan born king sits on an Atheran thrown, the heir to another must flee, And Lysaer poses a threat to there ever being any other Clan born kings - he himself will never be a true king.
So the Paraviens can take only one course.

Hmmm - there will be war, the Paravians With thier clan born allies, the Fellowship against Lysaer and the town born... and the Koriathain...
That will be a heart rending section I feel... Arithon on one side, and Elaira on the other.
And the war has to happen - the Town born will not accept the paravian rule, or autority, the paravians will not forgive all that the townborn have done.

Janny has a power, to make the reader emote, to feel the loss of friends, or loved ones of the characters - the battle is almost guaranteed (unless something really drastic happens)... Lysaer will doubtlessly fight paravians and lose his humanity - the battle, the carnage, the chaos could attract the greater part of the mistwraith - the Fellowship had a hard enough time distracting a scant few wraiths... all of them will be unstopable... or with they? A sorceror who is also the Master bard, who also has control of elemental shadow - and the entire Fellowship once again walking the face of Athera... hmmmm.

   By Hannah on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 06:19 pm: Edit Post

As such I don't think the Fellowship would try to break his curse, as thier actions would directly lead to his death.

Presupposing Lysaer would without doubt try to kill himself for "atonement and justice" (though I think his death would negligibly serve those purposes), if the Fellowship foresaw that he would off himself, it would still be Lysaer's free choice to do so. So I don't think that itself would be enough for them to leave him Cursed. If the Fellowship found a workable way to "break" the Curse.

I don't think either the Paravians or the Fellowship would go to war against town-born mankind in general. It wouldn't be much of a war would it, as the humans would very quickly have their asses handed to them. Instead, Asandir explained what the consequences would be if events got too far out of hand. And the consequence would probably make mankind wish there had been just a simple war...


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