I'm a Newbie (Poss Spoilers?)

Janny Wurts Chat Area: General Discussion: I'm a Newbie (Poss Spoilers?)
   By Matthew Rogers on Monday, April 23, 2007 - 02:54 pm: Edit Post

Apologies if im posting in the wrong section, new to this :-) just a couple of musings......

1)"Davien shall hear no reason, nor bow to the Law of the Major Balance; neither shall the Fellowship be restored to seven until the black rose grows in the wilds of Daon Ramon Barrens."

Someone else quoted this in the forum and i acknowledge it may not be exactly accurate... but it got me thinking. Are Dakar's prophecies literal or can they be metaphorical?

If he's not talking about a literal plant is it possible that this refers to a person i.e. arithon's power growing... or a child of his being concieved when he accepts kingship and then growing up?

Certainly for Arithon having a child who could take up the burden of king/queenship(in a future where peace is a possiblity)would ease his overburdened list of jobs. he's going to live for 500 years, i doubt he'd want to spend it all ruling if an equally suitable successor was available...

Also because Ms Wurts doesnt plod along in the same mold and we are constantly hearing about the previous high 'kings' im assuming that a female ruler, who isnt twisted with power like the prime matriach, is going to make an appearence.

2) Why were the traits split and exaggerated in each line so only one was predominate? Arithon has shown that two can be successfully be integrated without the person succumbing to selfimolation. and i was never a fan of plain justice, isnt there a saying 'justice is blind'? Justice without compassion is hard and unyielding.

3) how were the seperate lines kept pure... wouldnt it stifle freewill to have arranged marriages?

   By Blue on Monday, April 23, 2007 - 03:36 pm: Edit Post

Hi Matthew!

We tend to wander all over the place with musings and speculations, so no worries.

As to the Black Rose, Dakar and the rest of the Fellowship are being coy, so it is open to speculation that the "Rose" in question could either be a physical flower, or possibly even a child of Arithon's. Hmm, never gave it thought that the Black Rose could be the growing of Arithon's own power - the Centaur Guardian's statement in Kewar Tunnel, in Peril's Gate, should have been a clue... thanks for catching that one, Matthew.

There has never been a gender prejudice in the high kingships, so there have been High Queens within the kingdoms. In fact, the royal family lines of Shand and Melhalla seem to have been founded by women, and the Shandian royal line's last member on Athera was Princess Dari s'Ahelas, Arithon and Lysaer's ancestor.

You're right about Janny rejecting the typical fantasy mode - I for one got tired of the old cliche that "Male = bad" "Female = good" in most of the fantasy stories I have read. I just never saw any so mean as the Koriani, whom one new member, Angus, referred to as the Twisted Sisters.

As for a female ruler, who knows? Aside from Janny, that is.

The traits were split amongst the family lines because those are the traits that were predominant in each of the founders - i.e. Torbrand s'Ffalenn was noted for Compassion, Halduin s'Ilessid was noted for Justice, Bwin Evoc S'Lornmein was noted for Temperance, (these are the male founders of the royal lines, we don't know the names of the founders of s'Ellestrion or s'Ahelas, both of whom were women).

I think the traits were grafted by geas (and permission of the line founders) onto the lines so that those traits would remain in each of the royal lines. They would NOT have been, had they been unbalanced, and each of the founders of the royal lines were extraordinary individuals.

The F7 had NO CLUE that the Mistwraith was a multitude of beings until it attacked Arithon and Lysaer at Ithamon, and it was during that attack that Lysaer's gift of Justice was twisted into what it is today - a perversion of justice that is harsh, judgmental and unforgiving. Had they known this, they would have guarded Lysaer and Arithon far more carefully.

As to the seperate lines, they pretty much chose to marry those of like line - the clansfolk would marry clansfolk, but there was no penalty if they happened to marry and have children with townsfolk.

The surest test of the heritage, whether or not the clan talents survived an "outbreeding" was to subject the person to live contact with the Paravians. I wonder how much it distressed the Paravians if the challenger was not up to the test, and went mad in their presence?

There did not seem to be arranged marriages, because that would have been against free will, an important part of the Law of Major Balance.

   By Brian Uri! on Monday, April 23, 2007 - 04:24 pm: Edit Post

There's a great little explanation in the Appendix of the US Hardcover Traitor's Knot concerning the purity of royal lines. In a less eloquent summary, the royal gift flows like water through all available descendents, so purity of line isn't too important. Some descendents will show it more strongly than others, which is why the Fellowship must choose a particular heir rather than having a "next of kin" type of succession. When only one descendent is available (like Arithon), the gift portrays itself 100% in that person.

   By Matthew Rogers on Monday, April 23, 2007 - 05:41 pm: Edit Post

Thanks for the warm welcome and quick replies :-)

I carried on flicking through the website after i posted, incase any of my questions had been asked before and sure enough I found a whole passage explaining. Unfortuanely my sons were up to mischief and i just managed to skim through it before i was called away =P typically ive not been able to find it since as id like to thank both you and whoever that person was for the explanation as ive never owned a hardback copy before and cant recall the explanation in a softback :-( curse my lack of funding

   By Brian Uri! on Monday, April 23, 2007 - 05:50 pm: Edit Post

The Appendix comes straight from the author's pen :-) It contains:

Blood Heritage of the Royal Families
Succession of Crown Candidates and Caithdeinen
Particulars of Clan Heritage
The Designate Free Wilds, and Execution of the Compact
and a Timeline of Events To Date

   By Janny Wurts on Monday, April 23, 2007 - 07:13 pm: Edit Post

I've just received the copy edit of the full manuscript for Stormed Fortress, and with any luck, the new book will contain that appendix for the benefit of those in the UK and Down Under.

Hi and welcome to Matthew! Your post is highly appropriate, and nicely polite which is appreciated too. :-)

   By Angus on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 08:18 am: Edit Post

Welocme Matthew. I am no longer the newbie!

Your insight into Dakar's Black Rose prophecy is intriguing. A flower, or a raven-haired daughter of Arithon s'Ffalenn reared in the wilds of Daon Ramon? If she is actually named Rose, that would be a bit much. What about the Paravian word for rose? Either way, I think someone's got to unstop the Severnir, so that the rose (flower or girl) can bloom.

On the point of restoring the Fellowship to Seven, that obviously involves Davien "hearing reason" and bowing to the Law of the Major Balance. Obviously Ciladis must awake and come back. What about Traithe? He has not been whole since sealing the South Gate, due to his burning part of himself away in order to avoid possession by Desh-Thiere. Won't he have to be restored as well? Otherwise, the Fellowship will be at about 6 1/2, not 7.

Great news on the new appendix!

Six months, eleven days to go...

   By Matthew Rogers on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 12:33 pm: Edit Post

I could be way off base... but the prophecy has been left a little vague on that point as i understand it, no names are mentioned so it's not safe to assume it refers specifically to the fellowship becoming 7 again through davien rejoining and ciladis reappearing.

It was mentioned by Ms Wurts somewhere on the forum that ciladris had changed, originally he was one colour but now he is signified by two indicating this change... is it possible that the change will lead to an altered role?.

i STILL havent had a chance to check out this new cover artwork... but if a dragon is returning for some reason then all bets are off. When the call was made the seven fitted the criteria, or became the right people for the job so to speak... in a changing world maybe the fellowship of the seven (as it stands)isnt up to the task of ensuring paravian survival on their own.

This is all speculation though and in all honesty i like the seven as they are.. despite (or maybe because of ) how sparse our information about them is :-)

   By Angus on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 01:05 pm: Edit Post

Well, we haven't even heard from Ciladis yet. There is a whole character to develope there, and Janny doesn't leave stuff like that dangling forever.

You are right, no names are mentioned, and the prophecy is broad. Maybe Dakar gets some of his 100 level courses done and graduates to Fellowship status? Sorry, Davien and Ciladis coming back seems way more likely. What about the Mirthlvain guardian, Varain (sp?)?

Who else could ascend to Fellowship status? Perhaps Arithon? Sometimes the plain meaning is the right one. After all, the best way to hide something is to put it in plain sight...

   By Jo on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 01:51 pm: Edit Post

I do not think that Arithon can become one of the F7.
****Spoiler spoiler****
I believe it was written in PG that he is too dangerous (not exact words but my interpretation) I believe that he would help humanity and not the land I think that was what Davien was getting at when discussing the matter with Arithon near the end of the book. Could be wrong. The F7 however will put the land before humanity. Arithon is far too compassionate to do that. That's my opinion anyway probably interpreted this scene inaccuratley.

I have a feeling that The F7 Arithon thing may have been discussed elsewhere but haven't had time to check, any thoughts anyone

   By Matthew Rogers on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 02:44 pm: Edit Post

Arithon is constantly surprising people with his approach to problems so there's potential there.

Both spellbinders have their limitations it seems and theyve not progressed beyond the training given by the fellowship, as far as we know...

The questions to answer would be?

What gives the fellowship the strength they have? personal progression or the drakes binding?

Does everyone have the potential to become as 'powerful' as the fellowship members?

Is everyone created equal with the ability to reach the same level/strength/understanding if they can work past their personal flaws?

The koriathain method of replenishing members would seem to indicate that everyone doesnt have the same potential. But their viewpoint could be blurred.

The Seven have been together for ages... literally. Im sure after so long theyve built up a rapport that might be disrupted by someone new being introduced, no matter how good they are.

Is the drakes binding an actual BINDING, forcing them down a path of action but with room to maneuover?... or did theymake an informed choice and decide to take up the drakes cause willingly?

Elaira can claim her freedom from the korithain through freewill, so if the fellowship were in the same position wouldnt they be able to claim the same freedom from the drake binding if it was restrictive?

Maybe the fellowship dont really exist at all... maybe theyre simply creations of the drakes, the personalities and appearances copied exact from the originals.. so that when their purpose is complete they fade away like a dream...

I think im rambling a little bit and i can't remember what point i was trying to make when i started the post so i think ill end here.

   By Angus on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 02:53 pm: Edit Post


I am just starting my re-reads (2/3 through CotMW)now and won't hit PG until August (work full-time + 2 young kids + time with my wife (if any is left) = little time for reading).

Your take on Arithon seems right to me, plus, I don't see how our beloved story spinner could make that work. It would be too Hollywood(read: contrived).

Doesn't Davien care too much about humanity? Isn't the fact that he "cared too much" what drove him to his Betrayal?

I still can't see Dakar as a Fellowship Sorcerer, but note how his character has developed. The Mad Prophet, though still a letch and a drunkard, is changed, somehow matured (but man has he got a loooooong way to go!).

I still think the plainest meaning of the Prophecy is the likliest. Remember, the word used is "restored". But, only time, and Janny being hard at it for Arc IV and V, will tell.

   By Matthew Rogers on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 03:47 pm: Edit Post

I can see where you're coming from Jo, tho without a copy of PG i can't doublecheck like yourself on somestuff :-(... but I don't know if i can totally agree. Arithon seems to be well aware of the Law of Major Balance.. i doubt he could put either the people or the land first.. theyd equally recieve his compassionate regard. The people rely on the land for their survival.. whether they are fully aware of this or not. He helped right the lane imbalance as much for the people suffering as for the land needing help. I think he wont take either 'side', he'll try to forge a path that will be beneficial to all.. Athera gives its gifts freely, like no sickness, to those that respect the boundaries... humanity, it seems, is the one that needs to grow.

Another thought, wouldnt the continuing slaughter of thousands of lives upset the balance of things? couldn't this be the reason as much as anything else for why the paravians are still absent despite the mists being lifted?

   By Matthew Rogers on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 04:02 pm: Edit Post

Angus if memory serves me... Davien felt that humanity should have had their supplies replenished and been told to move on, he seems to have felt strongly about their plight but knew that trying to protect the paravians AND watch over and possibly teach humanity would lead to confict.

Maybe he believed that the compact as it was would stifle humanities growth through stagnation. There were sure to have been tensions already before the rebellion, its possible that he only speeded up a result that was going to happen anyway.

   By Blue on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 04:10 pm: Edit Post

I think at some point Janny said that the "restored to seven" bit in the Black Rose prophecy means THE Seven: Sethvir, Asandir, Traithe, Kharadmon, Luhaine, Ciladis and Davien.

Janny: Feel free to jump in and correct me if I am wrong!

Angus, you are QUITE right, Janny won't let us down with a Hollywoodesque type ending. Thus far, the lady has avoided being predictable. I wonder how much maniacal cackling Don hears whenever she reads these boards and our speculations. I myself have made predictions that were WILDLY off.

As for the return of the Paravians, they have decided to stay clear until the restoration of "true sunlight." All things considered, Desh-thiere, the Mistwraith, is imprisoned, it has not been totally defeated, i.e. the victims within the mists have not been fully redeemed and freed, and then there is Marak, which is chock full of victims who are free. The Paravians might be waiting on the F7 or SOMEONE, and the implications are strong that that someone is Arithon, to free those victims from their imprisonment, and allow them to seek the fullness of Ath's peace.

Matthew, I think you have hit upon something with the matter of the powers of the F7 - it is a combination of both the Drake Binding, AND personal growth.

In GC, Asandir is handling his personal defense against Morriel's direct assault on him, thinking back to the days when he was learning magic from "sly, temperamental old Drakes." Then, too, he is also reflecting upon Morriel's troubles, remembering when HE was at the bitter edge of hope, until he met the Paravians.

"How painful that final step into wisdom was," (paraphrase, I don't have the book in front of me.)

So it would be my guess that the Drakes trained the F7 sorcerers, but they learned, the hard way, to ascend above their original selves, and matured and grew into what they were today. Of course, they have been around for some 15,000 years, which is more than enough time to mature and become very, very wise.

Further proof is in PG, when Dakar is helping Luhaine and Kharadmon seal the breach at Rockfell. Kharadmon "possesses" Dakar, with Dakar's permission, of course, and Dakar is accessing Kharadmon's memories. He sees Kharadmon as he WAS, before becoming one of the F7, and "recognizes some seeds" of what Kharadmon was, in what he is today.

Gads, I hope I am making sense!

   By DarthJazy on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 04:28 pm: Edit Post

newbie here:

Thank you all for great speculation and janny is one of the few authors who keep in touch with her fans. thank you janny for that. for this reason and many other you are my second favorite wrighter.

I still think most are just not considering the potential of Lysaer ( I named my son after him). he is destructive but light is also life and i think you all will be surprised with what he can do if he gets his head out of his butt

   By DarthJazy on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 04:30 pm: Edit Post

newbie here:

Thank you all for great speculation and janny is one of the few authors who keep in touch with her fans. thank you janny for that. for this reason and many other you are my second favorite wrighter.

I still think most are just not considering the potential of Lysaer ( I named my son after him). he is destructive but light is also life and i think you all will be surprised with what he can do if he gets his head out of his butt

also for arithon to be a member of F7 wouldnt he first have to have a child? Cause otherwise he is the last that can be king for rethwailan. or am i mistaken?

Thank you again all and to janny

   By Matthew Rogers on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 04:45 pm: Edit Post

Totally making sense, i'm really enjoying being able to share my ideas with people and getting a response back, our youngest generally just smacks me with tigger and babbles about the cat when i ask him stuff.

   By Matthew Rogers on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 04:52 pm: Edit Post

Welcome DarthJazy :-)

The scope of Lysaer's power is incredible if it can mimic the sun and provide lifegiving properties for plants etc.

   By Matthew Rogers on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 04:54 pm: Edit Post

It's a little sad that the thing his mother didn't want him to be... is exactly what he has become. A weapon.

   By Brian Uri! on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 05:51 pm: Edit Post

I believe that it's been said in the past that the Fellowship of Seven refers specifically to the seven sorcerers the drakes summoned. Even if Arithon, Dakar or Verrain were to continue gaining powers, they would never actually be one of the Seven, so "restored to seven" in the prophecy should be interpreted literally.

Prophecy aside though, although Arithon can never be one of the "Fellowship of Seven", I bet he has the potential to become as powerful as one!

   By Matthew on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 06:07 pm: Edit Post

As masterbard AND mage he may be able to develope a greater range of understanding then even the fellowship.. as far as i know none of them can carry a tune =P

   By DarthJazy on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 06:54 pm: Edit Post

That i agree with. I look forward more to see what happens with lysaer. he has done all that he is done out of a warped since of justice. so muh for companion compassion considering they sacraficed him for thier precious prophecy. I feel he has the potential to be the greatest of all the leaders if they can just get rid of the curse and bring the realm into a true age of light

   By Blue on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 12:25 am: Edit Post

Agreed on Lysaer, DarthJazy (cool screen name, by the way!).

That is the tragedy of Lysaer, that he has the gift of true Justice, and it is so warped and perverted by the curse that he is the antithesis of everything he COULD be.

Remember, way back when in CotM, he was the ONLY one to feel any kind of pity for Arithon's situation when Arithon had been captured by the Amroth warship, Briane.

1. He visited Arithon personally, and his first impulse was to ease the cruelty of the bindings on his hands - the sailors were so scared, they bound his hands with manacles, then his fingers with wire. I'm learning how to do various things with wire jewelry, and I can attest, that BLOODY hurts!

2. Lysaer ordered Arithon to be drugged, even though the Briane's healer protested, because it was the only way to get him to port safely. In fact, Lysaer had been inclined to let him die of an overdose, rather than reach Port Royal alive, knowing what his lovely father had in mind.

3. He dared to argue with Asandir about how Arithon was being treated, essentially being forced against his will to assume a kingship he did NOT want, to the detriment of his music.

As for all of you new folks, feel free to talk to the rest of us - we don't bite, honest! :-O

   By Matthew on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 04:04 am: Edit Post

Forgive me if im wrong, but isnt it supposed to be the joint efforts of Lysaer AND Arithon which will defeat the wraiths completely? which would seem to imply that Lysaer will go through some form of redemption. I know alot of people don't like him for his actions but there is something about Lysaer that makes me sympathetic. Thinking of a character in another interesting book... Saul was hardly likable as he went around killing people.. but he had a change of heart and became one of the most enthusiastic apostles. Without the curse and with his mage sight opened up.. maybe Lysaer would have a chance?

Didnt Sulfen have protection from the worst of Lysaer's Light Blast?... so couldnt Arithon be given the same protection? Lysaer relies heavily on his abilities with the light for combat so maybe if they could be brought together Arithon could concentrate on dealing with the curse without having to spare effort in protection.

   By Jo on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 05:15 am: Edit Post

I have to say that In cotm I don't really agree with Blue, I thought Lysaer went to see Arithon in all his finery to show off. In TK (no book in front of me) think it was Traite said that Lysaer was already flawed before the curse. He def felt a little bit of pity when Arithon was tied up i agree but then who wouldn't (ok the sailors but then Arithon did attack them)
Before the curse Lysaer was already sickened by the clansmen and their way of life so he had already judged them. This is my opinion anyway and occasionaly I feel sorry for Lysaer but the most part can't stand the character, didn't like him much in cotm right at the start.
Anyway I am rambling as well.
Like you Mathew I don't get much sense out of my 2.5 yr old either and have a 2 month old so a bit glad book isn't out till November baby will be less demanding then all selfish reasons of course

   By Matthew on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 07:17 am: Edit Post

Lysaer seemed to be ambivalent toward Arithon in CotM from what i remember.

The wonderful thing about all the characters is that you can constantly speculate about why they do things. Did Lysaer visit out of pity and to ease Arithon's confinement? was he curious to see the brother he'd never met but was taught to hate? was his visit prompted because he wanted to prove he was the better of the two of them (through the fact he was free)? was it his sense of justice that forced him to seek out the other person's viewpoint and otherwise he wouldnt have cared? or is it a combination of all of the above.

As for Lysaer arguing with Asandir, again the reasons for it may be more complex then first glance.
1) protecting Arithon from being forced into something he doesn't want.
2) did he think that arithon was unsuitable as a king?
3) was he worried that with both of them as kings that war would happen eventually becuase of their history?
4) for most of his life he'd been taught that arithon was nothing more then a pirate, whilst he himself was a prince (and everything you'd expect that to mean). out of jealousy would he try to avoid them becoming official equals?

   By DarthJazy on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 11:55 am: Edit Post

Thank you Blue i love my screen name.

i have started my re read but since i no longer have cotm i have to start with ships of merior. I would think for the mistwarith final defeat lysaer will need to be used. I think the F7 were prejudice twords lysaer and wanted to protect arithon more caus eof there precious prohpecy. everyone in the books wants lysaer to take account fo rhis actions but is willing to forgive arithon any mistake. I think both bothers just need to be locked in a room together and they will either kill each other or come out as friends.

   By Angus on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 12:42 pm: Edit Post


Sorry, mate. I think that your view of Lysaer is a wee bit too simplistic. Remember, Lysaer, as great as his name might be, is directly responsible for the killing of tens of thousands: clanborn, people of Vastmark, those with vestiges of power who won't become sworn to the "Light", etc. and so on.

In contrast, the blood on Arithon's hands has always been in self-defence, even on Dascen Elur. In that splinter world, the s'Ffalenn ship, by itself, was on its way to Rauven to get Arithon assistance from the mages to make the land of Karthan fertile, so that they could abandon piracy. They were, one ship, attacked by a whole fleet from Amroth. On Athera, it is always Lysaer chasing Arithon, and whether it is his soldiers or those supporting Arithon who die, Lysaer is responsible for it.

Lysaer was not responsible for the attack on Dascen Elur, but he has built on it. Cursed he may be, but he has waded in blood since the last half of the first book of this series. He now believes he is divine.

I agree, I think that he has work to do to destroy Desh-Thiere. However, he must be redeemed first. He must be forgiven first. Yes, Arithon has messed up, but he always accepts responsibility for his actions. Lysaer never accepts responsibility. That is the difference. Forgiveness only occurs when there is repentence. Lysaer is convinced of his being right, of the justice of his cause, and is blinded to the facts. He cannot, therefore, be forgiven until he accepts responsibility.

It is those who were first around him and set up the false religion that really deserve to be drawn and quartered. Them and the necromancers. Oh, sorry. No killing allowed.

Locking Lysaer and Arithon in a room, right now, will result in at least one being dead, not friendship.

   By Matthew on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 02:54 pm: Edit Post

Does Lysaer really believe he IS divine though.. i thought it was more of a political expediant to win him support after the numerous failures.

   By Blue on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 03:21 pm: Edit Post

You're probably right, Jo, about my interpretation. Vive le Difference! (my apologies to any French speakers for possible spelling errors!)

But it still seemed to me that there was some small portion of decency in his actions, vain though they might seem. Yes, he was showing off in the Briane's hold, but he was trying to give orders to see to Arithon's comfort, when Arithon went off on his "evil mage" tangent, trying to provoke his own death. That was part and parcel of the feud between the nations they represented, and both were at fault.

The whole mess with the drugs, too, had some modicum of decency in it, because Lysaer KNEW his father's rage. If Arithon died on the way to Port Royal, well, it would have been easier on him than facing whatever torture/execution the King of Amroth had in mind.

Good catch, Matthew, on the additional reasons for Lysaer's argument with Asandir. Never looked at it that way, before! (So much for negativity towards newbies. Even we long timers can learn something new!)

I am with you, Jo, on Lysaer being a jerk. In real life, he'd probably receive a knee in the groin from me. (That could be prejudice, because I think Arithon is the better looking of the brothers. :-O )

   By DarthJazy on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 03:31 pm: Edit Post

of course the woman would think the singer the better looking of the two.


I feel both brother are a bit boyish and pansies and this is war between them and in history or without i have never known either side to do the right thing. Janny must be getting a kick from this thread lol. I dont think either of the two could mke crown rule too much has happened between them and the general populace. I think crown rule will coem form kevnor i think is lysaers child and which ever child arithon has.

another question dont one of them also have to stand in place of crown rule for the other half of their blood from there mother which i curently forget? or is there another heir out in the world somewhere? perhaps a unknown sibling from the mother know one knows about.

   By Angus on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 04:00 pm: Edit Post

Expedient-exschmedient. Lysaer lied in order to get support for himself. How's that for justice??? I think it started as an expedient, but one can only be worshipped for so long before they start to believe all that garbage. It's human nature.

   By Blue on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 11:08 pm: Edit Post

DarthJazy, Arithon and Lysaer's mother was Talera s'Ahelas, the royal line that ruled Shand and is still eligible, should a candidate present him or her self, to rule Shand.

Aside from Lysaer (via her marriage to the King of Amroth) and Arithon (via her liasion with Avar s'Ffalenn, King of Karthan) she had no other children. Of course, who is to say that another s'Ilessid or possibly even a hiterhto unknown s'Ffalenn might come looking for Lysaer and Arithon. Or possibly even stumble, all unknowing, on the scene.

We know now, from Arithon's ordeal in Kewar, that he has at least one cousin who MIGHT be eligible for rulership, and that was Jorey. At least, aside from Mak, the patriarch of Rauven, and Talera, Arithon and Lysaer's mother, Jorey is the only s'Ahelas we know by name. I doubt, however, should one of them come looking for his or her cousin(s), that Janny would pull an obvious on us and send Jorey, just because we know him by name.

It seems unlikely that a s'Ahelas would attempt to rule either Rathain or Tysan, because those are the kingdoms of s'Falenn and s'Ilessid, respectively.

It also seems unlikely, considering his commitment to the Adepts, and his comments when he accepted his place amongst them, that Kevor will ever rule, either. As to whether or not he chooses to have children is also unknown at this point. Plus, there is also the problem that according to the Religion of Light, Lysaer and the boneheads who worship him, would consider Kevor to have been seduced by evil.

For all of Lysaer's boast to Duke Bransian, (of his legitimate maternal descent from the s'Ahelas kings) in WoV, there is no way, no matter WHO his mother was, that he would be eligible to rule Shand. Mainly because the Caithdein, Lord Erlien, would cheerfully skin Lysaer alive before allowing him to succeed to the throne of Shand. He might try, using his influence amongst the Townies, to seize power that way. He certainly would NOT be eligible under the terms of the Compact, crowned by Asandir, or ever accepted by the clans. Not to mention, the Paravians would not accept his rule, since he rejects the principles of Ath Creator.

POST SCRIPT: It's not just me (American) who thinks Arithon is better looking. It is also amongst different cultures. A Nigerian gal I know looked at the books and asked me outright if Lysaer was gay, because Arithon looked so much more manly. A Polish gal thought Arithon was definitely "hot to trot."

   By Sarah Jump on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 11:25 pm: Edit Post

Hi all,
Just wanted to add to what Blue said. Remember the time factor here Jorey was older than Arithon that would make him around 60 years old I think.

Ok back to lurking now
btw this is a great converstion some great ideas to think about during the next reread which I REALLY need to begin soon.

Cheers :-)

   By Matthew on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 03:32 am: Edit Post

As for which is the more attractive of the brothers, who's ever heard of a fortuneteller saying 'you shall meet a tall blond stranger'. Dark always implies a certain amount of mystery, most women ive known like a guy with hidden depths and a little unfairly blonds have that label of being shallow airheads.

I agree Blue, i dont think Kevor would take up the throne after the experiences he has been through. It's a shame because if he had become king i don't think Lysaer would have challenged his right to rule.

*thought* why does Lysaer decide to strike Alestron because they may be 'allied to the dark' when a Fellowship (read: EVIL) sanctioned kingdom, Havish, is right there?

While a 'pure' version of the s'Ahelas line exists on Dascen Elur i don't think the Fellowship will consider Arithon or Lysaer's decendents.

The fellowship have an awareness of the bloodlines on the splinter worlds so they'd know if a line died out wouldnt they? i thought it was stated in the books that Arithon is the very last s'Ffalenn so another popping up is almost impossible unless.... didnt Arithon have an affair/illicit liason/stress release thing with a shepardess in vastmark? i haven't read that book in awhile but im sure i remember something about Elaira forgiving him about that and she wouldn't hold the comfort he was seeking against him. Sorry Ms Wurts if i'm slandering Arithon on a faulty memory :-)

Hi Sarah, while Jorey may be 60 he might not be 'old'. The Rauven Mages may have learned how to extend their life while Arithon is away. Even if they haven't do we know whether drinking from the fountain would keep you at the age you drink from it for 500 year? or would it work like a fountain of youth? :-)

Even if he is old or has died it's possible that one of his children or grandchildren may have the potential to rule.

*another thought* why didn't the fellowship like the idea of giving people elemental powers? was it because they can only be granted to an unborn child so you dont know the temperment of the person you're giving alot of power to? or something darker...

   By Jo on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 08:43 am: Edit Post


baby on lap so apologise for any spelling errors.
Regarding Arithon's liaison with a vastmark lady she couldn't have children as she was barren also he saw her in kewer so i think she may have died not sure. I agree with the girls def Arithon for me i thought Lysaer to be a bit camp also.

   By Angus on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 09:22 am: Edit Post

If one took away the fact that Lysaer was a curse-ridden homicidal maniac, he might be a bit more attractive. If he were cleansed of the curse, he puts me in mind of a mild-mannered republican (a la John McCain). Right now, he is more like Donald Rumsfeld. No wonder the girls don't like him.

Arithon is a musician. In fact, he is the best musician there is. I remember an interview with John "Cougar" Mellencamp, who started carrying a guitar around in high school in order "to get girls". Apparently it worked, even though he didn't have any ability with the instrument at the time. At least in North America, and I think this is international, girls always like musicians. Look at a guy like Mick Jagger. He's definitely not winning any beauty pagents (he is dark, though), but his romantic liaisons are legendary.

(ASIDE: It's funny that the stereotypical preference for women tends to "dark", and the stereotype for men seems to be blondes? (Not me. My wife is a beautiful brunette, with auburn tendencies).)

Musicians always get the girls, whereas guys like Donny Rumsfeld...well, the guy even looks frustrated.

   By DarthJazy on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 10:14 am: Edit Post

In defence of lysaer he did get the most beautiful girl in the land did he not. Talith even she admits to his god like looks. ill post alter when i think of another thread to start or somethign to talk about anyone got any ideas?

   By Jo on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 01:45 pm: Edit Post

I think Talith went for him because of his statesmanship its the power thing I think. Arithon didn't lavish her with attention and was immune to her beauty. If Arithon acted like Lysaer and Lysaer acted like Arithon I would not like Arithon for then I would think he was a homicidal maniac as Angus has said.
Lysaer mistreated Ellaine what an A***

   By DarthJazy on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 02:04 pm: Edit Post

as i reread ships of merior and am reminded of things it seems to me that the curse is better than we give credit for. arithon has his mage training to not let the curst effect his decisions.

Lysaer on the other hand has no such protection. with the gift of justice he sees arithon as the root of all evil. if you view it this way is it not lysaers duty to bring this man to justice no matter the cost. there for all his actions would have to bear that in mind sometimes to get rid of evil and bigger evil is needed and that is how the curst wins time and time again. F7 should have given some training to lysaer and maybe they wouldnt be in this perdictament. Even though lysaers viewpoint is wrong he doesnt feel it is. I could see myself doing many of the things he has done himself if i was in the same situation.even with arathon not around i dont think lysaers curse lets him be at rest and the F7 dont seem to see this.

   By DarthJazy on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 02:16 pm: Edit Post

a note i forgot to add. It seems to be that Lysaers free will is no longer existant while arithons has his. doesnt this break some sort of rule for the f7 and why kick out a man from the compact if his free will is surcumvent?

   By Jo on Friday, April 27, 2007 - 02:41 am: Edit Post

The F7 tried to help Lysaer and he didn't want their help, hence why he was thrown out of the compact. He wouldn't abide by Aths Law so he kind of put himself out of the compact. Lysaer has been told he is curse driven but chooses to ignore it (so it seems) because if he accepts that then everything he has done would have been worse than terrible and Arithon isn't what he would have everyone believe. Its only Lysaers justice that has been warped not the whole of him. Which means everything he undertakes
doesn't mean it is curse driven. Even his son
tried to help him and other Adepts but he refuses their help aligning them with evil. At
least Arithon accepts he is curse driven and tries to combat it which he has now succeded in doing. It still there but managable.
The curse did effect Arithon's decisions it was pointed out several times in the Maze. The Havens for one! Another point is Arithon said in TK that if Lysaer had training then certain things would not have happened and the F7 said that he never asked. He had to ask for help for training and never did - free will and all like Elaira can ask F7 for help to get out of the "twisted sisters" they won't just tell her she has to work it out for herself (very annoying but that's the way it is)

   By Winter on Friday, April 27, 2007 - 03:47 pm: Edit Post

Traithe offered Lysaer training almost from the first moment they met. Lysaer was even tempted, if I remember correctly, but felt that his duty to a kingdom outweighed the knowledge that ought to have been his birthright. You could go all the way back and blame Talera and Mak s'Ahelas for not doing better by Lysaer in the first place.

Lysaer has character flaws. The one that got him kicked out of the compact was denial, more or less. He couldn't accept that all the deaths in Vastmark went because of him, and for nothing. He couldn't bear facing the widows and orphans believing that, and so couldn't accept what the Fellowship were saying. Or so I understood. And that's understandable, if you think about it.

In other circumstances I'm sure Lysaer would have made a fine High King. And it's been said that if not for the curse, Lysaer might have been able to apply more reason to his actions. Still, Lysaer has free will, but personality and belief system keep him from making the difficult choices against the curse. Also, the Fellowship can't do anything to him (kill him, imprison him, force training on him, etc) without breaking the Law of the Major Balance.

That law is also what keep them from giving new babies elemental mastery. They had to get special dispensation to imprint the various geas on the royal lines. We've probably all read novels were a superpowered hero feels like their "gift" is a curse and resents the restrictions on their freedom such responsibility demands. Bestowing elemental mastery wouldn't be something the Fellowship would do.

   By Sundancer on Friday, April 27, 2007 - 11:24 pm: Edit Post

I thought Lysaer did acknowledge his faults, when confronted by the Seven, but when told that he'd have to go back and admit to the widows of Vastmark it was his fault, couldn't cope (couldn't face himself fully?), and let the curse-driven view of himself take over again.

I get the impression he doesn't like what he does much, certainly doesn't think he's divine (glimpses we get - e.g. in the aftermath of a curse-driven fury), but sees it as the price he has to pay to rid the world of Arithon. His denial of the existence of the curse means he now can't question his belief that Arithon is evil. The more he goes down that path, the harder it will be for him to get out of it. But it can't go on for much longer or he'll really go insane, or be completely ruled by the religion he invented - I'm looking forward to how Janny gets him out of that spiral.

How much of a part will Sulfin Evend play in that? He's going to be faced with an agonising choice soon between the land and Lysaer.

   By Laneth Shadow-Walker on Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 10:46 pm: Edit Post


With the link between where Sulfin Evend was headed at the end of TK and whom he was expected to meet and the recently-released short-story...one has to wonder if the short story was strategically released to draw our attention to a previously overlooked people/area of Athera...

Interesting to see if this lot make a move again...

   By Blue on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 12:09 am: Edit Post

Always expect the unexpected with Our Miss Wurts - aside from the consistent excellence of writing (and the yummy covers) in this series, that is the only constant with WoLaS.

   By Angus on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 08:11 am: Edit Post

Can someone please give me a list of the WoLaS short stories? I haven't read one (though one arrived (Child of Prophecy) in my local bookstore over the weekend) yet, and I've got six months for re-reads. It'd be nice to track down all of the short stories. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think there are four.

I have only read Janny's teasers, which are just annoying (in the words of Smokey Robinson, "a taste of honey is worse than none at all"). You just get going, and then YOINK! the rug gets yanked out from underneath you.

If she does more teasers, I'll still read 'em though. What can I say, I just know I won't be able to resist.

Any chance of a compilation of short stories Janny?? I saw mention somewhere on the board of that possibility.

   By Hunter on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 08:32 am: Edit Post

All of Janny's short stories are listed here: http://www.paravia.com/JannyWurts/website/Books/ShortStories/ShortStories.html

The WoLaS short stories are:
- Child of Prophecy
- Sundering Star
- Reins of Destiny (due for pub in Dec 2007)

   By Angus on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 03:03 pm: Edit Post

Thanks Hunter. I was wrong. It was "Sundering Star" that arrived, not "Child of Prophecy".


I read "Sundering Star" over lunch today. Really neat tie-in with the desert people of Sanpashir and Sulfin Evend at the end of TK. Also a neat bit about the Koriani. It would be really good to see more origins stuff.

Makes one wonder about what role the desert peoples will play in this last part of Arc III, and in the coming Arcs. I don't think we have heard the last of them.

   By Angus on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 03:19 pm: Edit Post

I am trying like heck to find Fantasy Masters containing "Child of Prophecy", but despite quickly flying fingers over the keyboard, all is for naught.

Does anyone have the ISBN, the editors, and the publisher? This is really annoying, as there is a WoLaS story, out for well over two years that I HAVEN'T READ YET!!!

Sorry. Momentary loss of control. Please help anyway.

   By Matthew on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 05:06 pm: Edit Post

Some thoughts:

1)Just been thinking... anyone know exactly how many men each brother has caused the death of through planning.. because thinking about it Arithon is in the tens of thousands to Lysaer's... thousand or so?

2)The entire conflict between the brothers doesn't necessarily have to last the full 500 years of war does it? I imagine there are lots of people who would carry it on without too much prompting..

3)Anyone else wonder why Arithon's never used his power over shadow to create the invisibility type thing since he had that little scrap with his cousin? it would have been handy when he was infiltrating the Alestron Armoury.

4)Why the Fellowship would suck at babysitting.

I wonder what it would have been like if Arithon and Lysaer were 5 years old when they passed through the gate...
*imagined conversation:
Asandir 'Lysaer is calling himself Lord of Light and has gathered the other children into a small impish army. Arithon seems to be fleeing for his life... opps i think the forest is on fire now, that was a badly thrown light blast...'
Dakar 'shouldn't you intervene'
Sethvir 'we must respect free-will and the law of major balance'*

In the words of the the comic guy in the simpsons: worst babysitters EVER.

5) Arithon accepting kingship doesn't necessarily mean he'll be crowned king does it?

   By Mark Timmony on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 08:06 pm: Edit Post

Angus, Galaxy have the paperback of Fantasy Masters in stock. :-)

It's published by Baen Books and the ISBN is 1416509275

   By Winter on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 10:13 pm: Edit Post

Angus - Try looking for it under "Masters of Fantasy" as the title, you may have more luck. I know the Toronto Public Library have a few copies and a quick search at Chapters.ca turned it up quickly.

Matthew, in my opinion...
1) Depends on how you look at it. Lysaer launched the Vastmark campaign, and would have expected some casualties (although not quite as many) so he "planned" those deaths as well. Arithon involves the minimal amount of people in his campaigns, Lysaer invovles the maximum. You'd have to calculate per capita to be fair. You'd have to add every person who died because of Lysaer's false religion too (most of whom were probably more or less neutral in the conflict).

2) The conflict could go on after both their deaths or it could all end in just a few more years. Only Janny knows...

3) I'd have to re-read, but maybe he did. We know Tharrick wasn't negligent in his duties when Arithon slipped through afterall. It's easier to hide in plain sight, so he can eat, drink, sleep in a bed and walk around in disguise. If he's invisible all the time he'd have to constantly avoid being bumped into, steal food, and sleep in places where somebody won't inadvertently step on him. And people with mage sense would pick him out. The curse allows Lysaer to sense Arithon's mere presence so invisibility would work there either.

5) No, but I'm sure the Fellowship would want to crown him as soon as possible. It'd be interesting to see how Kingship would effect Arithon's power. He'd be connected to Raithan through all the elements, and perhaps might be given the crown jewels as well.

   By Trys on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 10:59 am: Edit Post

Hi all,

Been away for a few weeks. GREAT discussion! Really enjoying it. Please don't stop just 'cause I'm back. ;)

Re: F7 restoration, I believe the Black Rose Prophecy entry in the appendix of later books uses the word 'reunification' but don't have a copy of the book readily to hand,


Masters of Fantasy at Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/Masters-Fantasy-Baen-Science-Fiction/dp/1416509275/ref=pd_ bbs_1/103-3605796-6381442?ie=UTF8&s=books&sr=1-1


   By Angus on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 11:07 am: Edit Post

Trys & Mark:

Thanks. Already ordered. Waiting for it to arrive at my local bookshop (I like supporting them, even though Amazon is cheaper).


   By Matthew on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 04:15 pm: Edit Post

The reference does say reunification of the fellowship of the seven. But does that mean reunification of the original members of the fellowship.. or reunification of the fellowship of seven as an organisation?

It seems a fine point to argue but there are precedents in history of an 'organisation' splitting and forming splinter-groups, only for those same splinter-groups to join together again at a later date under the original name.

Germany - Berlin wall...

Maybe im stretching here. :-)

   By Matthew on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 04:16 pm: Edit Post

Maybe Dakar's Black Rose Prophecy is about a new song by David Hasslehoff?

   By Trys on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 05:21 pm: Edit Post


Sorry but I think you are beating this dead horse to a messy mass of protoplasm. There is no doubt in my mind that reunification means the original seven being joined together once again. Any combination of 6 or less with 1 or more others would be unification... not re-unification. :-)


   By Matthew on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 05:41 pm: Edit Post

I know, i know. The horse is well and truely dead. I'm posting all over the place for want of something else to do :-) check out my slightly more interesting arguments...

   By Blue on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 06:50 pm: Edit Post

I think in one older thread (which one, I don't remember) Janny herself said that one did not "just become" a F7 Sorcerer. The original 7 were called by, bound into service, and then trained by the Great Drakes - it might just be that the Great Drakes will not accept JUST anybody. Hence, the reason there are spellbinders, like Verrain and Dakar, rather than lesser or replacement Sorcerers.

   By Neil on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 10:26 am: Edit Post

I think is goes - inevitably - even deeper than that....

But for me it's clear the F7 are the seven and remain so. It's a done deal.

Certainly you'd have to be crazy to volunteer...and to date the F7 have not found the means to break away. If they cannot who could? And would they? Davien seems frustrated(angry?)...

Verrain and Dakar can help the F7 and may be part of a longer term solution for mankind? But they are not bound in the same way (although the fellowship are obliged to "use" them when needs arise...so arguably they are not free either whilst the f7 are bound).

Arithon has respect for the F7 and perhaps will learn to pity them? Arithon, at least, is free but his choices may help the F7 whilst saving himself and his loved ones, avoiding the curse and generally being a saint-mystic.

The F7 current plan has lasted 5000+ years...slow going, I imagine.

See FAQ on Fellowship:


Search for: "Can you tell us more about the Great Drakes and the Fellowship's origins?"

   By Jeffrey L Watson on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 07:44 am: Edit Post

Please post Stormed Fortress Spoilers in the Stormed Fortress Spoiler topic so that people who have not read that books don't inadvertently stumble into one. I've moved the latest posts of this thread into a new thread called 'Conjectures with spoilers'.


   By Matthew on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 08:26 am: Edit Post

ah thanks, sorry :-)

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