World's End Gates

Janny Wurts Chat Area: General Discussion: World's End Gates
   By Judy on Saturday, December 07, 2013 - 09:46 am: Edit Post

North = dragons
South = Marak
West = Red Desert and Dascen Elur
East = ??

Will we find out what is on the other the other side of Eastgate?

   By Mark Stephen Kominski on Monday, December 09, 2013 - 03:01 am: Edit Post

Don't remember which thread the comment was in, but since Janny never establishes these things as "eyewash", you can be pretty sure that we will. When, how, and will we see it coming? That's a different story...

   By Neil on Monday, December 09, 2013 - 10:36 am: Edit Post

I wonder whether there is a fire/water/air/earth model at work here?

West water?
South air(?)
North fire?
West earth?

   By Jeff on Monday, December 09, 2013 - 02:59 pm: Edit Post


This make me wonder...

What would have been the outcome had a DIFFERENT Fellowship Sorcerer faced the incursion at South Gate?

I suppose it's neither here not there because Traithe WAS the one. Still, a different skill set, as it were, might have yielded victory, or greater disaster.

   By Annette on Tuesday, December 10, 2013 - 02:02 am: Edit Post

I always thought of them as World Send gates rather than World's End gates. Maybe the other interpretation is the end of Sethvir's reach with the earth link? There has been no sign of Athera ending each time something was banished through a gate, and so far Athera has survived what was returned. Although it seems the dragons are still not meant to return through their gate.

Since Janny never has something in there just for window dressing, and the gates were needed for humanity to settle on Athera, I would think she would eventually get around to disclosing what the East Gate was for.

Maybe some red banded Koriani meddlers can be banished through the East Gate, although I would have thought the South Gate better for them.

   By Julie on Tuesday, December 10, 2013 - 02:48 pm: Edit Post

Why were the gates needed for humanity's settling on Athera?

   By Judy on Tuesday, December 10, 2013 - 05:15 pm: Edit Post

Interesting idea, Neil. I'll have to find a description of someone setting up the cardinal directions for a spot of magic and see if there's a correlation.

Humanity came in space ships. Remember that Davien wanted to restock the ships and send them on their way when they first appeared.

   By Annette on Wednesday, December 11, 2013 - 01:23 am: Edit Post


Why were the gates needed for humanity's settling on Athera?

Well at the start of the story we might not have had a clue, but after 9 books have some idea

For a start someone knew what the future would be and arranged safeguards, probably the Paravians, although the gates were created by the Fellowship. The North Gate was needed, as an alternate location for the dragons, if the dragons had stayed, humanity probably would not have been able to survive. But we have yet to find out what enticement got them to leave before humanity settled. No doubt it was something to do with some prophecy, there seems to have been one for just about everything. The dragons wanted to extend Ath's creation, but although they had the means and the knowledge were lacking in compassion, and things went wrong. So we could maybe guess at what enticement might move them.

West Gate was needed for the some of the royals to escape through and later return with the solution to the South Gate problem. I doubt the Fellowship would have allowed two royal lines (or was it maybe three?) to be combined on Athera, let alone wild magic gifted to unborn children. Mind you they had already meddled with their five chosen royal lines in the first place to ensure the royal gifts would be passed on.

South Gate was needed as an alternate location for those who had settled, yet developed an interest in technology or things that were a danger to Athera and forbidden under the compact. They banished the trouble off world and it not only destroyed itself as it seems most of the previous human civilizations based on technology had, but it also created the Mistrwraith that escaped through the gates to destroy a sister world and endanger Athera.

We have yet to learn if the East gate was used to banish something from Athera, or provide sanctuary for something. The Paravians are still on Athera, so never went through a gate. Maybe the East gate is for a future problem, or for some of the more advances beings currently on Atheras. Each planet had to agree to be settled by whatever it was they were going to end up with, so it seems all 4 worlds and their buffer worlds end up with something and has some purpose. Janny has just not got to the East Gate yet.

Possibly some of humanity stayed with the ships and never settled on Athera, but moved on, not wanting to give up their technology, religion, or for some other reason. No gates would be needed for them, it was only what was on Athera that would have gone through a gate.

When the half brothers reached the red desert they walked east, so went through an east gate and ended up coming out Athera's West Gate. East meets west.

Athera's North gate is apparently paired with a fire gate (south) on the dragon's side. The opposite gates are paired again?

The cardinal point of West is usually represented by water, Dascen Elur had a lot of water its buffer world seemed to have very little. All we know of Marak is it originally had no mist, they created the Mistwraith and ended up with too much mist, the Mistwraith froze Marak, its buffer world and part of it came through South Gate to Athera.

Fishing through the books and combining Ithamon, the cardinal points and info from the focus circles, which might be a mix up and mean different things, we would get.

East - Air
Dunlaithe (endurance/honor)
Black granite and obsidian with a black tourmaline finial.
A sunray was called down to light the east sconce.

North - Earth.
Alathwyr (wisdom)
White with alabaster combing.
The polestar provided the spark for the North sconce (white starfire)

West - Water,
Kieling (compassion)
Green jasper (symbolic of renewal)

South - Fire.
Lilaere (grace)
Rose Quartz
Flame was summoned to light the south sconce.

There is also the mystery of the gates possibly being made out of different materials.

The dead iron portal of the gate the brothers came out of in the red desert.
The porphyry pillars of Athera's South Gate
The chipped arch of Dascen Elur's ancient stone portal.
The scrolled silhouette of Mearth's World Gate never gave much info.
The lichened splotched arch of Athera's West Gate seems to be be plain stone from Janny's sketch.

Maybe they are all made of iron and stone, and some lost their stone when they were closed, but Janny usually has a reason to provide the extra detail. Porphyry is a deep red or purple stone made up of feldspar and quartz crystals.

   By Sleo on Wednesday, December 11, 2013 - 04:47 am: Edit Post

I like this, Annette.

   By Julie on Wednesday, December 11, 2013 - 08:32 pm: Edit Post

Thanks Annette for trying to figure it out!! I thought the desert planet was more paravian- I no longer have COTM but there was something about gem cutters from that world that I thought were not human. Also the term "splinter world" suggests that humans colonized Marak and Dascen long before the rebellion. Once the gates were closed to two- way transportation, the rebellion could not spread to those other worlds. Interesting that the history of the rebellion was not taught to either Lysear or Arithon on their birth worldd!

   By Annette on Thursday, December 12, 2013 - 07:53 pm: Edit Post

You are rignt Julie, there was an enclave of Paravian Gem cutters living in Mearth before the Shadows of Mearth escaped, I meant the Paravians that had vanished from Paravia had not gone through a gate. Paravians can only stay on a buffer world for a short time so I never really thought of the planet as being Paravian. Davien was also there and there could have been humans as well.

They would have been called splinter worlds before anyone settled on them.

   By Julie on Friday, December 13, 2013 - 12:59 pm: Edit Post

Why is that? I assumed the gates were a type of worm hole, the "splinter" worlds were not near each other were they?

   By Annette on Friday, December 13, 2013 - 04:33 pm: Edit Post

No, the planets do not seem to be near each other, but Sethvir and that earthlink seem to be able to reach all the way to Marak and Dascen Elur. His view of the birth pangs of the West Gate prophecy just routinely turned up with all the events happening on Athera.

North Gate is only passable for dragons, so unless the dragons dreamed up their own humans there would be none on those two worlds. You could be right in that the 4 destination worlds were selected to evolve a splinter of Athera. But I think we will have to wait and see.

And if the dragons are meant to be learning something or evolving while on their splinter worlds would could it be? Seshkrozchiel seems to be the one having all the fun discovering and even creating new things in partnership with Davien. She seems to be enjoying the experience so much, she is attracting dragons back through the gate. So maybe all the dragons can learn from what just one experiences?

   By Julie on Friday, December 13, 2013 - 07:28 pm: Edit Post

So I'm doing another reread of Merior (its been a few years), anyway just got past the bit where Asandir is explaining to the s'Brydian bros about the violent path starting with gun powder. He says that the humans who went through the South Gate were allowed to persue those technologies and ended up as the Mistwraith.

Hopefully we will learn why that world was not monitored- the mistwraith incursion seemed to be a big surprise.

   By Annette on Saturday, December 14, 2013 - 03:11 am: Edit Post

They have complete freedom of choice on the four destination worlds, none of them are monitored, they were not the Fellowships responsibility, and not bound by the compact. Although again how did Sethvir happen to come up with that view of events occurring on Dascen Elur?

The centaur guardian who was Warden of Althain at the time the Mistwraith came through the gate had to have had warning of what was going to happen. Sethvir knew when the gate from Dascen Elur had been activated. I doubt it was coincidence Traithe happened to be there to meet what ever was coming through South Gate.

   By Gary Coady on Saturday, December 14, 2013 - 05:26 am: Edit Post

Sethvir's connection to Dascen Elur was due to the presence of Alithiel, if I recall. The High Mage was holding it in the vision captured by Sethvir.

   By Annette on Saturday, December 14, 2013 - 04:20 pm: Edit Post

In 9 books Sethvir has not I think shown any mystical connection with Alithiel. When he needed to find Arithon and could no longer identify him the usual way, he traced his horse, not Alithiel. Alithiel still could have had something to do with Sethvir recieving the info, but I checked and it was plain words Sethvir heard, then he summoned power to verify the source and recognized Alithiel, and that Mak was a descendant of Dari's.

"The King of Amroth has chosen to banish Arithon through the Worldsend Gate"

"Although the listener’s phrase was one of thousands which intruded upon his thoughts hourly, the sorcerer focused his attention instantly to prove its origin."

   By Julie on Sunday, December 15, 2013 - 08:53 pm: Edit Post

The remnants of the royal families were sent through the same gate. I assume there was someone to then direct them through another gate on Mearth. Arithon and Lysaer grew up with customs and beliefs not that different from Athera. s'Ahelas seemed to substitute for the F7, but outside of the open use of magecraft, there was no advanced technology. I hope we get to learn more of COTM pre history!

   By Annette on Monday, December 16, 2013 - 01:56 am: Edit Post

If someone was directing the royal heirs as they reached Mearth, they must have sent that s’Ellestrion Prince the wrong way. Or he just failed at being a living compass.

I have often wondered if those night winds were there before the Shadows of Mearth killed everyone off (if that is what happened). And what the ninety and nine discomforts of the Red Desert are.

For ninety and nine the most interesting find was a hymn.

   By Julie on Monday, December 16, 2013 - 09:41 pm: Edit Post

Did the d'Ellestrion prince make it off Athera?

   By Judy on Monday, December 16, 2013 - 11:06 pm: Edit Post

S'Ffalenn, s'Ellestrion, 's'Ahelas and s'Ilessid are the 4 that Dakar lists as he's betting with Asandir about who is coming back

   By Annette on Monday, December 16, 2013 - 11:40 pm: Edit Post

The last s’Ellestrion Prince made it through the West Gate, died crossing the Red Desert. Only three royals made it to Dascen Elur. From the Traitor's Knot Glossary, the last s’Ellestrion died in 5018. So they were going through West Gate at different times. Dari the last royal to flee was born in 5037, I am not sure it was ever mentioned how old she was when she went through the gate, but I would think at least 18.

Havish's little orphan stayed at home, as did all his descendents. He was born before Dari, so I am thinking there was a reason for that lineage to be not sent through West Gate. Luhaine thought the last surviving s’Lornmein worth dying for.

   By Annette on Tuesday, December 17, 2013 - 08:37 am: Edit Post

And a question for Janny about one of the FAQ on the Paravia site, and which I always thought was wrong, so have finally decided to query.


Q: When exactly did the Fellowship exile people through South Gate?

A: Exile through South Gate, for those who chose to pursue the Compact's forbidden technologies, would have happened after creation of the Mistwraith.

Would it not have been before the creation of the Mistwraith? If no planets linked to Athera by the gates had a human population before the compact, and no one went through the gate till after the Mistwraith was created, who created the Mistwraith? It was said in the books that mankind created it.

   By Janny Wurts on Tuesday, December 17, 2013 - 12:54 pm: Edit Post

Hi Annette, You Asked: that is a wrong footnote - exile through South Gate occurred before the creation of the Mistrwaith.

   By Julie on Tuesday, December 17, 2013 - 01:23 pm: Edit Post

Thank you Judy and Annette- I am waiting for my new copy of COTM to arrive- I would have been able to answer my own question about s'Ellestrion. Did the uprising actually extend to Mearth- is this what happened in the Red Desert?

   By Clansman on Tuesday, December 17, 2013 - 01:59 pm: Edit Post

Seems to this Clansman that we've been waiting for the tale of Mearth for quite a long time in the form of a short story. I remember Janny saying something about it being very "messy". Suffice to say, something bad happened.

So I will ask. Any chance of a story on Mearth and its demise? On the origins of the splinter worlds (where humanity can actually survive, apparently)?

   By Trys on Wednesday, December 18, 2013 - 06:13 am: Edit Post

The Splinter Worlds FAQ has been corrected.

   By Annette on Wednesday, December 18, 2013 - 07:38 am: Edit Post

Thanks for the answer Janny and Trys for all his hard work.

While I would love a short story about Mearth, Davien's creations, lost Paravians and royal gems, I know Janny is going to have to explain some of that later anyway. I can wait for a no doubt forgetful Arithon to get there.

For Julie, CotM actually only had Dakar's comment in it concerning the s’Ellestrion lineage. It was not till Ships of Merior and I think all the other books that the fate of the s’Ellestrion Prince was included in the Glossary under Melhalla. But still the first book is full of interesting info, a great read, and you would need it for the big re-read before and probably after the next book.

   By Neil on Thursday, February 05, 2015 - 04:11 pm: Edit Post

i wanted to pick this up again - the four directions the-four-directions/

east gate could be "future, new beginnings, grouwth, salvation/spirit"

I do not think it coincidence that we have not yet seen the east gate details...

   By Annette on Thursday, February 05, 2015 - 08:53 pm: Edit Post

Why would it not be similar to the meanings of the compass points in the magic?
East Air
South fire
West Water
North Earth

And it has been mentioned in the books what at least some of those elements represent, or are placeholders for.

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