Well I finally knuckled under and joined the group so I could post. I don't have COTM to hand but re read it when I went home for Xmas...
Everyone thinks(lead by Fellowship interpretation):
Davien won't repent and the Fellowship won't be restored unless the Black Rose Flowers. This will Happen when Arithon accepts kingship.
What (according to my interpretation) is ACTUALLY said:
1) Davien will not repent (end of statment)
2) the fellowship won't be restored to 7 until this sign (Black rose)
Comment (Sethvir? don't have book to hand): 'Thats impossible'
Response (New prophecy (Ath answers?)):
'This will happen when Arithon freely accepts kingship'
People assume (IMHO wrongly):
Fellowship restored to ORIGINAL 7.
Resolution of story will be fulfillment of Black Rose Prophecy that the fellowship are striving for.
I think that scene is the one which everyone will kick themselves over in the end because the writing is exquisite - you naturally make the one assumption which everything that comes afterwards flows from. Sadly its wrong.
Janny, you wrote: "I see no need to repeat here what has already been illuminated in published text for the benefit of you readers."
Will the appendix ever be available in the UK books?
Neil - can't answer that at the moment.
I am shortly going to turn in Stormed Fortress - and if they don't squawk over the length, I will ask....let's see what develops. It would be nice.
This wasn't a deliberate slight - the appendix got added to the US edition because there were going to be six blank pages....so at the last second, we filled them with the material, which was supplied because of so may reader's questions on those topics.
The US hard cover edition of Stormed Fortress is very nice.. worth buying for the artwork as well as the appendix!
To my knowledge, I am just about to turn in the manuscript....
Though I got someone's e mail from NZ today, claiming a library could get an edition from "outside" - odd since the story hasn't left home yet. Even the editor's waiting.
Oops.. I meant Traitor's Knot..! Sorry..
Some online book stores do get hits when searching for Stormed Fortress because when SF got split into TK and SF, the SF name seemed to be kept somewhere..
I was thinking that post must have been an error. But then I realised that the US hardcover of STormed Fortess will indeed be worth buying for the artwork and appendix. So still true, if not entirely what was intended...
Now that's funny.
I'd love to read the NZ version...that would be an ... interesting ... read.
Janny, ye rock. Totally. Turning in your chopped&changed manuscript to the editor. Oh what a glorious day!
From here, we are steadily approaching the down-hill run to the finish line, aren't we?
This year will go fast, if for no other reason than I'll make it...just to get my hands on the book!!!!
The Kiwi version would have "eh?" at the end of every sentence of dialogue... ::grin::
RE Black Rose Prophecy... I had the same wonderment a while ago. I was rereading and then suddenly sat up and noticed.
"Davien the Betrayer shall hear no reason, nor bow to the Law of the Major Balance; neither shall the Fellowship be restored to Seven until the black rose grows wild in the vales of Daon Ramon. The briar will take root on the day that Arithon s'Ffalenn embraces kingship."
Is that first bit one sentence or two? That semi-colon is open to interpretation... You can read it as either "These two things will happen when the black rose blooms" OR "This will not happen, but this will happen when the black rose blooms." That "neither" is rather vague. That's something I've been curious about for a while now as well.
Hey Hunter, Galaxy Bookshop still has copies of the US TK
The Fellowship, if it's restored, would be restored to the original seven. See this thread (Janny's post in particular) on why.
I think the catch is the idea that Davien has to believe as the others do about humanity's place on earth and the political structure devised to govern it. Surely Davien could become a participating member of the fellowship and still disagree with the others on certain points. Also, I think the really interesting thing to consider is Ciladis returning. Because if Ciladis returns then that has the strong suggestion that the Paravians will be found or are returning to the continent themselves.
Thanks Mark, I bought my US TK copy when in the US on business.. others in Australia may be interested.
For the Fellowship to be restored to Seven, that would mean not only Davien agreeing to rejoin and Ciladis return from his slumber, but also Traithe being restored to completeness. Given there are bits of Traithe in the Mistwraith, the resolution of Desh-thiere is clearly a pre-cursor before the question of whether these missing bits of Traithe could be recovered is attempted.
Part of Davien's disagreements was the Fellowship taking responsibility for humanity in the first place, which is why I think he's grooming Arithon as his saviour of humanity.
Here's another thing that made me sit up and take notice, which might shed some light on Davien's sudden affection for Arithon.
"[Davien] judged MORTAL MAN unfit to reign in dynastic succession." (CotM US paperback pg 102, emphasis mine)
However, with the entire Five Centuries Fountain thing, plus possibly being able to achieve the same type of longevity the F7 seems to have, Arithon is no longer quite mortal, is he? ;)
hmm. Presumably someone-else drank from the fountain in the past? Otherwise why create it?
Well I'd thought for a second that perhaps Davien might have made the fountain for the express purpose we see it used in the book, but upon further inspection I see that the Five Centuries Fountain inscription was Third Age 3140 (prior to his discorporation, btw), and the West Gate Prophecy was Third Age 5061 (also prior to his discorporation, which was in Third Age 5129), so obviously that doesn't work. Perhaps we shall see something in a short story about Mearth and the Fountain that will shed some light on this.
Going back to black rose prophesy, I too wondered about the exact interpretation. However, in the story the Fellowship + Dakar's interpretation is clear.
In COtM there is the phrase "the precarious black rose prophesy, which keyed Davien the betrayer's repentance and the return of Ciladis the lost..."
The F7 "traded Athera's peace for their own reunification"...but the "conditional link had been lost"
I guess this link is Arithon being king of Rathain.
Davien certainly is not repenting yet...but the reunification of the seven is importance for mistwraith resolution "riddle of desh-thiere's nature be unwound...until the fellowship stood at full strength..."
Right, we have *their* interpretation, but as we all know the F7 isn't omniscient so it's possible they could have jumped to conclusions. ;) Janny's warned us more than once about automatically falling in with a character's viewpoint and assuming that their viewpoint accurately describes reality. I guess only time (and Arc 5) will tell.
I think that the mistaken viewpoints are often townborn / Lysaer / Koriani. The F7/Dakar/Arithon make serious mistakes but they admit them to themselves/other in the text.
But I take your point. I did feel the same way for a while but I think it is overcomplicating things. There is so much that is in plain sight that we just haven't got to grips with yet.
I suspect that Davien could repent if his plans cause much suffering...and finally don't work...but he does seems so sure of himself today.
It's almost as if he wouldn't mind protecting the paravians if he had a choice but the fact that drake dream forces him seems to upset him.
Also humanity seems a lost cause long term without some imposed catalyst for change. Maybe Arithon will find another approach to rule. Once there is an alternative he will likely repent? Maybe Arithon can make choices that the F7 cannot.
We're kind of supporting the mavericks (Davien, Arithon, Elaira)...but it seems unlikely that everything will go back to the way it was before the uprising. There is still a lot of upheaval about to occur.
Paravians are such a strong influence that it would be nice if they come back for an arc or two ?!? But this mistwraith resolution and paravian return seems geared to fellowship reunification.
I am wondering (and may be WAY off the mark, but just a thought) whether the prophecy is ambiguous enough to hint that the F7 need not necessarily be the original 7. It's just this question that's been in my head for a couple of days (I'm currently at the spot in the tale where Arithon flees Etarra after the disastrous non-coronation).
Hi - welcome here :-)
Janny has confirmed I think on this point. Or more or less?
The Fellowship of Seven is a not a group where people join/leave. These 7 guys have similar origins (without wishing to spoil here) and the driving reason for their stay on Athera is still in play.
I was actually thinking, since all seven of the Fellowship of Seven agreed to the compact and to stand surety for humanity's behavior. All seven have to be reunited as a group and a Paravian representative has to return, if a new arrangement is to be made.
Hi Neil and Annette,
Thanks for the quick replies! I don't usually access the internet when I'm not in the office, so pardon the lack of response.
Sorry, I've only recently found this site and have been trying to read around as much as possible but at the time I asked the questions, I hadn't yet looked at that FAQ page that Neil mentioned. I'm reading it now. Thank you for your help!
Welcome Annabelle. I'm the gryphon is resident who manages and maintains these demesnes. No need to apologize if you are a little slow to reply. We all have real lives. Also, you will find the residents of this place to be very friendly and helpful.
As to reading all the posts that are on this board... phew! nearly as much as the actual books (well probably not but still a lot of stuff). ;) Take your time, enjoy, and by all means feel free to ask questions and offer your own ideas.
Trys (aka Jeff Watson)
I'm always happy to see new people here. Have fun with the reading, but watch out for spoilers.