Archive through December 25, 2004

Janny Wurts Chat Area: Arc 3: Alliance of Light: Fugitive Prince, Grand Conspiracy; Peril's Gate & Traitor's Knot: Traitors Knot Discussions: Spoiler Topics: Davien and Humanity: Archive through December 25, 2004
   By Hellcat on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 02:27 pm: Edit Post

Yet again the stuff of much spoil.

OK. Understand why Davien didn't want humans to settle Athera. Understand that he believes that the F7 will have to destroy humanity again. But, IS Davien attempting to induce that destruction??? I'm really confussed.

On the one had he uses Arithon as just a tool, but the very forging of Arithon into that tool indicates he cares. But cares about what? The Paravians and beings? Fuffilling his oath to the Drakes? Humanity?

With humanity alreday settled on Athera does he really want to be the one to entact their destruction? And if so why hasn't he done so? If he's not bowing to the LOMB surely he could wipe humanity out (Leading them into a grimward by trickery for instance would probably do the job.)

Thoughts please

Hellcat


   By Trys on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 03:27 pm: Edit Post

SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER

At one point, in PG I think, there was some indication that Davien may view Arithon as someone who is capable and deserves to rule over mankind... at least that was my take on it.

I'm afraid we still don't know enough of Davien's motivations to guess what he is up to.

Trys


   By skeoke on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 06:27 pm: Edit Post

SPOILERS SPOILERS .......

IMNHO (N for never),

I think Arithon was forged as Davien's chosen tool against the Kralovir. (Davien's phrasing, not mine. Mine would indicate growth and choice and understanding)

It seems to me, and I could be VERY off base here, witness everything I've ever guessed at before... It seems to me that Davien was against mankind settling Athera because of what they brought with them - evil? Though, what could be worse than the Drakes dreaming without love?

Davien would have preferred that the refugees be restocked and sent their merry way - possibly killing them if no suitable planet were found - and keep Athera pure, than to have them spoil/infect Athera and force the F7 to exterminate/eliminate/expatriate how many of their descendants with Athera in jeopardy.

Now I just have to find a link between the High Kings rule and necromancy to have the Uprising match the Havens...


   By Auna on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 07:47 pm: Edit Post

spoiler

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Davien felt the original setup was flawed, so I see him as using Arithon as a tool to set up a more permanent way for humans to live with paravians and not cause more trouble that would force the fellowship to wipe them out. He's willing to risk Arithon to force him to grow, possibly because he's decided that Arithon can handle it, or possibly because if Arithon breaks, another tool will come in time. When you live basically forever, time loses meaning.

As long as the paravians and Athera are at risk, the fellowship will never be rid of their task due to the dragon oath. Something has to change to allow them to fulfill their obligation and be able to go their own way. I think Davien is trying to achieve that.


   By Hannah on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 08:16 pm: Edit Post

I agree with Trys. I'm of course disapproving of the seeming ruthlessness of some of Davien's actions and thoughts on the surface level, but I can't claim to understand his motives, so I'll reserve judgment (JUDGMENT AND DAMNATION AHAHAHAHAHA! Er, no seriously.) If Arithon can't understand him, and the Fellowship have their qualms, damned if I'll give it a go.


   By Izzy on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 09:54 pm: Edit Post

SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER


quote:

I think Arithon was forged as Davien's chosen tool against the Kralovir.




I believe that there is a hell of alot more to Davien's motives than just the Kralovir. It's so very unlike Janny to have things setup this way from the beginning (five centuries fountain plus the trip through Kewar) just to get rid of some pesky necromancers that the F6 themselves could handle.

Regards,

CJ


   By Leonie on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 05:13 am: Edit Post

When I read all the previous posts, the first thing I thought of was Davien's comment about Paravian survival in answer to Arithon's question (pg 59 TK trade paperback) "Ciladis would willingly speak on that point, if you should ever chance to encounter him. Whatever he might say, the primary issue was never in doubt. Paravian survival is paramount." My interpretation on Davien (at this point in time) is that to him, with or without the drakes' binding, he would do anything to ensure Paravian survival.

Whether this is at the root of his disagreement with the rest of the fellowship regarding humanity's presence on Athera or not, I can't say, but I would tend to think so.

I suspect that Davien has more than a little of the "s'Ahelas farsight" of his own. He seems to have a much more forward thinking trait than even Sethvir. There is one particular moment that keeps popping into the back of my mind - it's where one of the F7 says something like "Davien could have taken some of the Grimward strain off Sethvir" (not in those words, obviously!) and I read the implication of that statement as "sharing the load" rather than repairing the grimwards as Asandir has been doing. Does this imply that Davien has the far ranging ability to segment his consciousness that Sethvir has? Not sure, but very intrigued about that little statement. :-)

Davien is certainly "forging" Arithon, but I'm certain it's for more than simply the demise of the necromancers. There's the lovely little reminder from the centaur on pg 220 of TK "Fate's forger, you were Named. There lies your destiny, ripe for the hour when you finally embrace the full reach and strength of your power." Obviously Arithon has changed enormously - Kewar's tunnel did drastic things to him. He is emotionally more whole than he has ever been previously portrayed. His mage talents have enlarged, his s'Ahelas farsight is operating spontaneously and globally, his birth born shadow mastery is enormously enhanced, and his masterbard's talent is expanded. And he still hasn't quite integrated them all together - imagine what he might become with it all under control and acting in synergy. The F7 are good, but are they that good??????? (Maybe just different. :-) )

Have I made any sense? Comments please!

Leonie


   By Kam on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 09:13 am: Edit Post

SPOILERS YADDA YADDA YADDA YATT

I'd have to agree with Leonie on her interpretation of Davien's current motives. Actually, I've been waiting ages for someone to start this, because I had typed up a semi-incoherent rant on this topic when my mind was finally starting to settle down.
I'll post it here where people won't look at me funny. :P

--

Why did Davien create the Uprising? I'm guessing it's to break the Compact. He's already proved himself no friend of the whole deal: "I have no desire to labour for ages, with failure being the axe blade poised over my neck." It's not so much that he's heartless, rather he foresees the risk of humanity's leave upon Athera, since "Paravian survival is paramount" and the very presence of mankind endangers that race. He doesn't want a repeat of the incident Calum wrought, he doesn't want humanity to have to suffer that same horror eons before.

So when outvoted by the rest of the Fellowship for both the arrival of mankind and the system of government chosen, Davien naturally would like to break free. Doesn't Asandir say something along the lines of those who are in captivity long for freedom all the more? The Uprising, I'm guessing, was probably created in the hopes of breaking the Compact.

Does that mean he wants to kill everyone? I doubt it. Breaking the compact doesn't necessarily equate to mass murder.

It makes sense, or to me anyway, that this was Davien's motive. The time of it, when the Fellowship, the Kings, the Paravians and the clan born were all occupied with the invasion of the Mistwraith suggests that Davien planned to force the Fellowship hand. To make a choice between their two objectives: Paravian Survival or The Monarchy. He misjudged their response, I think. If they backed off to protect their Kingdoms, the Mistwraith would win through and threaten Paravian survival. So naturally he thought they would stay to defend the main objective. But instead, the Fellowship backed away, the Mistwraith won through and only Traithe' intervention prevented complete disaster, and the Paravians vanished. The monarchy crumbled, as Davien had planned... but the greater goal was threatened. I think this makes sense to Davien's comment about it being his own "personal version of the Havens." His main successful objective was exactly what it appeared to be: Like Arithon's massacre. But the secondary objective failed, the Fellowship would not abandon their Compact and the Paravians were endangered as well.

The so called "punishment," I think is meant to appear like that. Janny's already said that it wasn't so, but the Fellowship seem to have made no effort to discourage that mistaken impression. So I believe that this is what was planned at the outset. Davien volunteered himself for the whole transfer thing, as the scapegoat. He already knew that the the price of failure would be to take the blame: "If their choice was to stand, I had to fall. They had committed too much to revoke their position. I expected no more, and no less than the fate their hand dealt me before I chose exile." Which also brings into light the fact that Davien knew exactly what had to happen if he failed. I guess there was an augury or a scrying like Arithon's one prior to the Havens and he saw both possibilities. Or maybe he was just farsighted.

But this whole deal didn't actually happen until 100 years after the Uprising. I don't really understand why they would wait so long, although I suppose they have to lick their wounds first and then cast the blame. But surely... not 100 years? Another thing would be that the length of time would mean that most of those directly involved in the Uprising would have died and the Fellowship were free to cast whatever impression they intended upon the populace. I dunno.

After the disaster, Davien's left to clean up the mess he made, while the rest of the Fellowship re-cooperate from their loss. The Five Centuries Fountain proves this, I think. It makes sense that Davien built this fountain for one purpose: so that Arithon would have enough life span to complete his full destiny. It seems very suspicious to me that Davien would even built something like this out in the middle of nowhere and guard it, without having some interior motive. Davien's already said that his plan is to mould Arithon into a weapon (but for what...?) so yes, I'm thinking that the Fountain was purely for Arithon's sake. This also suggests to me that he had some vision prior to everything. I'm not sure if it was built before the Uprising or after it, but either way, it doesn't matter that much. Before would suggest that Davien had planned a safety net in case things went haywire. After would mean that he attempted to save the train wreck aftermath. Paravian survival depends directly on Arithon doing the same, so it seems to me that Arithon's destiny, so to speak, is to bring them back out of hiding, not to ascend the throne at Ithamon (although one probably leads to the other). So Davien's main goal is to protect the Paravians. He's already established that as his first and foremost, with or without the Drake's "oath." Arithon, then, as Davien's tool, is probably meant to bring back the Paravians (as well as set the Fellowship free? Hmmm.)

All this other stuff, the necromancers and etc, are obstancles, hurdles on the path to success. And to forge his character too, I suppose.

I wonder if Davien's aware of the Black Rose Prophecy. I find it amusing that Davien's trying to destroy the monarchy, yet the way Arithon's going, it seems far more likely that the Prophecy will be fulfilled and Davien will return to the Fellowship.
The words sound to me not as if Davien "wins" but rather he "sees reason" and reunites with the rest of his colleges.

Davien's pretty tough on Arithon. Since he sees him as a method of achieving his own goals, Davien simply arms him with the necessary knowledge required to do so and then sends the poor boy in. Oh, I love this passage:
Althain's Warden regarded his ringless, thin hands. 'To spare Arithon.'
'For what?' Davien's stinging mockery came back, untamed. 'Pray tell, Calum Kincaid, for what? A future that brings us mankind's execution? Armageddon, again, because the drakes chose us for the staggering task of lifting their legacy of remorse?'

We've already established that Davien hates the limitation placed upon him by the drakes. Even without the cage I believe he would still fulfil his obligation but the fact that there isn't any free choice in this irritates him.

It's kinda funny how the Law of Major Balance means that the Fellowship is not allowed to mess around with humanity directly, but yet the fact that mankind is under Fellowship guardianship sorta defeats the purpose, ne? But I assume the price of them staying is that loss of freedom, so there's the balance. I guess that's also why Davien's using Arithon to get his means across, since he still has to obey the Law.

I've always wondered, do the Fellowship long for death?

-- end rant

Did that make any sense? I wrote it out to to clear my whirling mind, really.


   By Beth on Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 12:08 am: Edit Post

I had part of this thought before we met Davien and I have not read TK, but is it possible that Davien is molding Arithon to be his successor. The Black Rose Prophecy only says the fellowship will be returned to 7. It doesn't say who the 7 will be.

And yes, Arithon can accept his kingship, have an heir and then become a Mage or the Masterbard. There is nothing that says once he ensures the next generation that he can't go his own way. Because at the very least I assume at some point he needs to find the next Masterbard as well.

Are we still in the <100 years of the half-brothers time on Athera. I am surprised that more time has not been passed. I was assuming that most of this war would take at least 400 yrs given their extra 500 years of life. (Have to give them some time for happiness to live out a full life ;) ) So does this mean that the last two arcs will jump in time? Anyone have ideas after reading TK? I am just assuming SF will start with a similar time as TK.



Beth


   By daymaster on Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 02:16 am: Edit Post

My impression was that Davien did start the uprising, as he says to prevent something from happening - I'm assuming he meant the Mistwraith but it could be something bigger. I know that he didn't like the Compact but I don't know how he would imagine that the uprising would have broken the Compact.

We are still in the first 100 years of their life. By my count, at the end of PG we were only at 30 years after Curse of the Mistwraith began.

I'm assuming there could be another jump in time as we had before.


   By Trys on Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 05:12 am: Edit Post


quote:

returned to 7. It doesn't say who the 7 will be.


Not 'returned'.... 'restored'. The glossary uses the term reunity. I'd say it's a safe assumption that it's the original 7.


   By fhcbandmom on Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 07:53 pm: Edit Post

Trys - we discussed that once before (a long time ago!) and I still disagree with you. I interpret the restoration as a restoration to a fellowship of 7 in number - not necessarily the original seven. My basis for this? The scene way back in CoTM, after the attack by the wraiths at Ithamon, when Dakar sees Arithon and Asandir with the same "aura" (I can't rmember the exact phrasing). Since then, I believe it is Arithon's fate to become a full fledged Fellowship member. It will be fun to keep reading to find out which one of us is correct!


   By Emilie on Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 01:08 am: Edit Post

*peeking in again*

I thought Arithon can't become a full fledged member of the F7 because there are no drakes to bind him. That's why Verrain is not a member. At least that's how I understood it. *shrug*


   By Beth on Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 11:21 am: Edit Post

I always thought Verrain and Dakar were spellbinders because they 'lacked' as much 'power' as the F7. At this point I'm not even sure Traithe has as much power as Dakar and Verrain. He has the mastery but no power. I don't think the original F7 could be returned without something becoming of Traithe. And there is no telling what Davien has become, but from what people's opinions have been, I really wouldn't see him returning to a 'fellowship'. I think he has outgrown/become weary of having to work with others.


Beth


   By Hannah on Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 12:00 pm: Edit Post

I think Emilie is on the right track. Wouldn't, technically, you have to swear a Drake oath to become one of the F7. I doubt they probably have a set of "rules" to join their "club", and there's no stopping anyone from rising to being equal in power, but not an official member. Would they even welcome a new member to have to deal with all the crap they have to deal with, and the responsibility, and the executioner's sword hanging over their heads?

Arithon could be come just as great as they (if that's what you believe--I don't know that he could be in his lifespan), but not actually join.

I don't think Verrain is at the level to be a sorcerer though. Otherwise, he'd have to be used a lot more than he is right now, tied to Mirthlvain by responsibility or not.


   By Auna on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 01:36 pm: Edit Post

Janny already answered that question on this board elsewhere - you need the drakes binding to make a fellowship member. Without that, you just have spellbinders.

I also recall her stating that fellowship members are extremely powerful beings. So, Arithon is very talented for a human, but wouldn't be able to hold a candle to a fellowship member. That's the gist I got.


   By Hannah on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 08:43 pm: Edit Post

Hm, maybe that's why I was thinking that Auna. Vague stirrings of remembrances of something Janny had said. :D


   By max on Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 06:13 am: Edit Post

So, does Davien have a superiority thing going on? Does he feel he has the right to judge humanity because he is a superior being?


   By Izzy on Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 07:22 pm: Edit Post

SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER


I differential the drakes influence on the F7 members by two things. 1) The "initiate" magic that the 7 were endowed with. 2) The "binding" that the drakes laid on them. I don't know which came first, or if they occured at the same time. There are several references in the books to their power and binding being two different things.

Also, somewhere in TK, someone (I think Dakar) looks at Arithon and notes that his power is becoming visible in some external way (I can't remember the quote, and my wife has the book), which is something that Dakar had only previously seen from a Fellowship sorcerer. So perhaps the things that Davien is doing is equivalent to the original F7 receiving the drakes "initiate" magic WITHOUT the limitations of the drake binding.

Regards,

CJ

(Message edited by admin on December 15, 2004)


   By Leonie on Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 05:22 am: Edit Post

SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER

"So, does Davien have a superiority thing going on? Does he feel he has the right to judge humanity because he is a superior being?"

I think that Davien simply did not want humanity to settle on Athera when they arrived. I think he has a more wide ranging forward thinking (seer???) bent than the others. He may have forseen the problems arising. I also think that he may wish the Paravians to survive even more than the others do. I don't think he feels "superior" although I may be wrong here, but my take on this is that his split with the rest of the F7 was seeded around the time humanity arrived. In making the gates, he provided other methods of leaving for humanity to take advantage of. Maybe he simply has a hard time of forgive and forget with the rest of the F7. Maybe they realise he was right and they were wrong and they haven't sorted that out yet either. :-) :-)

Edited to add SPOILER header:


(Message edited by admin on December 15, 2004)


   By max on Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 02:19 pm: Edit Post

I also wish they hadn't settled on Athera. It must be damned hard living in heaven when you are mostly regarded as 'barely concious pond scum'.


   By Leonie on Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 02:34 pm: Edit Post

Oops, sorry! Forgot about the spoiler heading, apologies to all.

Leonie


   By Izzy on Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 06:01 pm: Edit Post


quote:

barely concious pond scum




Someone has been watching too much Men In Black :-)

Regards,

CJ


   By Hellcat on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 06:06 am: Edit Post

I think I've just had a brain wave or brain dump. with spoilers

Is the resolution to the Black Rose prophecy right there under our noses? That Davien doesn't have to undergo a change of heart to become reconciled to the LoMB or the F7. Re-reading P58 the chapter Wakening, Davien sees arithon as


quote:

you are my fit weapon to champion the cause of humanity




Arithon's foresight reacts to this with vision of him as High King of Raithain. Is this what Davien wants ? A High King, but one who adheres to a "better" set of laws( I notice here that janny uses the words "ancient law" deliberately not specifying Charter or Paravian law.)

So Davien sets Arithon up with the powers he needs, Arithon embraces kingship and Davien says effectively, "Yes, happy now we have something better than the compact, I will work in concert with the f7." Maybe the system that Arithon will embrace will release the f7 from the Drakes binding and thus the F7 will not only be restored but be restored to be what ever they what.

Hellcat


   By Neil on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 07:10 am: Edit Post

SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER


Davien also tells Sethvir that Davien has set up Arithon as the tool to deal with necromancers.

But the choice was something like "Compact or the Rathain kingship"

I think the compact is likely to replaced with something else, particularly if the clans are decimated to a degree where they no longer exist in sufficient numbers "grass roots of the compact.

Redemption is a sprial...

And is Davien really prophesised to hear reason?

"Davien the Betrayer shall hear no reason, nor bow to the Law of the Major Balance; neither shall the Fellowship be restored to seven until the Black Rose grows wild in the barrens of the Daon Ramon."

The semi-colon for me separate 2 issues. But I would need an English language teacher to clarify this. Anyone?

can we safely assume?

1 Davien the Betrayer shall hear no reason,
2 Davien the Betrayer shall not bow to the Law of the Major Balance
3 The Fellowship will be restored to seven
when...
the Black Rose grows wild in the barrens of the Daon Ramon."

or is it?

1 Davien the Betrayer shall hear no reason,
2 Davien the Betrayer shall not bow to the Law of the Major Balance
3 The Fellowship will be restored to seven when the Black Rose grows wild in the barrens of the Daon Ramon."

My grasp of English grammar lets me down again...

what is "reason"?
I though he respected free will etc. = law of major balance no?


   By Trys on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 12:06 pm: Edit Post

SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER

I wonder if Davien's complaint is with the Compact or with the use of a monarchy to enforce it. Does he see a candidate in Arithon who can act in ways that he, Davien, feels are appropriate and this would offset his objection to the monarchy?


I think the key word in the phrasing is 'neither'. I think this ties all of the mentioned items together such that Davien will hear reason, will bow to the LotMB and the Fellowship will be restored.
Trys


   By Hellcat on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 12:14 pm: Edit Post

For me it is:

Davien the Betrayer shall hear no reason, nor bow to the Law of the Major Balance.

End

If Arithon.embracesKingship then {
BlackRose.growing(Daon Ramon)
F7.restore()
}
End


   By Auna on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 05:32 pm: Edit Post

I was also freaked out by this prophesy and it's implications if the neither doesn't tie in the first two items with the last. To me, neither means there must be more than one thing being referred to, which would be the first two items, so I have hope that all three things will come about if the black rose blooms. Though it will be super interesting to see if it comes about with Davien not seeing reason ever.

I see this as a masterful way to keep us in some amount of uncertainty until the end.


   By skeoke on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 08:31 pm: Edit Post

I may never have a 'humble' opinion, but I do have idiotic ideas...

Does anyone else here wake up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat wondering if the Black Rose Prophecy bears any relationship to High Lord Kevin's promise to the Unhomed that their long search would be near it's end when triplets were born (or some such)?

:shudder:

Sorry, no more burritos before bed.


   By MJW on Friday, December 17, 2004 - 08:50 am: Edit Post

Skeoke,

Must admit, I'd never considered that. Must also admit, I'm hoping to get a copy of "The Runes of the Earth" for Christmas :-)


   By Katherine Socha on Saturday, December 18, 2004 - 01:18 pm: Edit Post

Spoilers
By the way, I thought this was an excellent book and am not at all dissappointed in it.

Who's to say the fellowship will be restored to any of the original members? The prophecy says the Fellowship will be restored to 7. But what if it's not Davien and Ciladis returning and Traith being restored. What if an entirely new set of people replace them and the original ones are freed from the drake's bindings.

Also, it was the drakes that bound the original F7 and gave them their power. Remember, though, there was a place where Davien told Sethvir he heard the dreams of Haspastion's living mate. There are still living drakes, or at least one of them. Other people could recieve the drake's binding.

Also, I wonder where the drakes are? They're probably not on the second continent, and they're not anywhere to be found in the places mentioned so far. Do you suppose they might be in the Sanpashir desert?


   By Trys on Saturday, December 18, 2004 - 03:54 pm: Edit Post

And the glossaries say 'reunity'. So the F7 will reunite. At least that's my take on the meaning.

Or have the surviving dragons dreamed themselves a reality lying in parallel to Athera.


   By Anon on Saturday, December 18, 2004 - 04:35 pm: Edit Post

Spoilers

I thought that Davien's motives became fairly clear in Traitor's Knot. He does not want the situation to stay the same - he thinks that that is ultimately a losing game. And Arithon is the key to doing this. [So if Davien knows about the Black Thorn prophecy, then I think that he is very much opposed to it.]

The situation on Athera has stayed the same for thousands of years (F7, Koriani, Clansmen, Townsmen). TK was very much similar to The Ships of Merior plotwise - indicating the constant repetition of the situation.

Davien wants Arithon to grasp his destiny and forge a new path for humanity. By luring him into the Maze at Kewar he forced Arithon to reforge himself. Now by constantly pushing him against the Koriani and also by creating a losing situation for his allies, Davien is preventing Arithon from staying aloof in the background but forcing him to act - to reforge humanity. In the process this could allow the F7 to fulfil their purpose.

Davien tried to change the situation before by aiding the rebellion, but it didn't work: it merely changed the power balance between townsman and clansman. He is hoping Arithon is more sucessful. In a way I think Davien's philosophy is similar to that of the Shadows in B5, if anyone watched that series.

Actually I hope that in the next book Arithon does kick over some of the anthills. If it is just a repeat of Warhost of Vastmark, then I think that I will tire of the series.

By the way, have you noticed that Davien is the only one of the Fellowship who has actually achieved anything positive (the healing of Arithon) in the series? The rest of the Fellowship have either caused disastrous situations (eg foisting Dakar on Arithon, the cursing of Lysaer and Arithon, the visit to the wraith world) or prevented a negative situation.


   By Hannah on Saturday, December 18, 2004 - 05:20 pm: Edit Post

SPOILERS BELOW:

Katherine,

Yes, the question of whether it will be a reuinty of the original members (as I lean towards), or if by some stretch, some new members could join... that's what the whole debate is over. It's something that has been discussed a few times before, I think, as well.

Also, a lot of buzzing about the mention of a living Drake since TK has been read... I was pretty sure that that had been mentioned in the series before, but I'm still in the process of picking up references. I know Arithon posed the question in FP on their journey through the grimward.

Anonymous Person,

Foisting Dakar on Arithon is a disastrous situation? I think, at worst, it could be called a draw. Dakar caused some troublesome situations in SoM/WoV, but after that, I don't think one could call him disastrous. I also don't see how "preventing a negative situation" counts as achieving nothing positive.

Janny is not going to rewrite Warhost of Vastmark, unless you choose to read the book with a preconceived mindset of "This is the same as Warhost of Vastmark."


   By Rhett Jones on Monday, December 20, 2004 - 06:00 pm: Edit Post

There is a bit in Peril's Gate where Luhaine demands that Davien speak to him and he tells Luhaine that unlike the rest of them he has acted and if Arithon survives the Maze, he will be ready to take on the challenge of the wraiths.

I don't think Arithon himself will ever rule Rathain although his son or daughter will. I think Arithon may become a figure of legend among the populace while he is still living after Lysaer dies. We know that Fellowship Sorcerors were given new Names when they crashed on Athera, so if he becomes one of the members, he may take on a new name.

As for Davien I've noticed something, he uses the word 'sod' against Luhaine. That's a british slang, so I'm going out on a limb and stating that I think he is of British descent, if many times removed.

I wonder if, after the Fellowship, is Arithon the most powerful human being on the planet?


   By max on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 07:41 am: Edit Post

LOL. Yes Izzy, I did get that from MIB. But altho I didn't list the credits I did put quote marks around 'barely concious pond scum'. I absolutely love that line!! I really gets across what I had in mind to say and most of all my lines come from mass media. I could always resort to cussing which is my other favorite communication mode, But Trys would probably edit or else throw me off altogether :-).
But aside, alot of books, stories, what have you, treat humans in them as interlopers, or world spoilers. Which is probably as fairly accurate picture of us humans. sSo I don't know why I feel driven to protect or defend them or us. But I do, and so then I get annoyed at myself. [grinning at ya]


   By joe on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 08:54 am: Edit Post

Ok, I don't know if this has been discussed before but it's been bugging me for ages. We know that the series is based around the meditations of sages in the seventh age of Athera (TCotM). The innitial prologue could be interpretted to suggest that

a. humans will survive to become the sole inheritors of Athera.

b. It is the mythology of the light that will endure the age with Lysaer held up as 'divinity incarnate.' Only a few scraps of manuscript will survive to point to the true facts.

If this is the case then I cannot see Arithon ever taking up the kingship of Rathain and heirs will surely not be forthcoming unless the Koriani order is disbanded (although this is quite possible I admit!) Hence the fellowship will not be reunited.

Is it Daviens desire to see humanity take control of there own destiny free from the constraints of the compact?

Admittadly I've yet to get TK yet (2 weeks late and counting!!!!) so maybe I have missed something vital, but it would be nice if some one could clear some of these points up for me.

have a happy christmas everyone


   By Trys on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 11:55 am: Edit Post

max,

Cussing is one my favorite modes of coummincation (especially when driving though the 'recipients' can't hear me). <grin> But you are right, I wouldn't allow that here.

Trys


   By Phil on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 07:18 pm: Edit Post

Joe,

Been a while since I read the prologue but I can't remember if it is ever mentioned that the seventh age sages are actually on Athera (they could be descendents of bitter exiled Light fanatics).

Also I seem to remember that Lysaer is not mentioned by name - could this mean there will be other 'Lord Of Light's.

And as for the last few points - read TK!!!


   By George on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 01:03 am: Edit Post

S
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What I find interesting is that the sages of the 7th age discern the "truth" about the master of shadow.

Given that the S'Gannley gift is one of "true sight" that the sages and gifted talent of the Light are none other than descendants of Sulfin Evend who have inherited his gift?

We know that his family produces strong talent, given the Koriani interest in the family line.

my $0.02.
George


   By winter on Saturday, December 25, 2004 - 02:59 am: Edit Post

I'm not sure if this has been discussed already, but why couldn't humanity have been settled on one of the worlds beyond the gates instead of staying on Athera. We know that Marak and Dascen Elur were/are inhabitable planets and that some humans did end up living there. Why wouldn't the Fellowship simply help humanity settle on one of those other worlds? They could see humanity safe and keep Athera for the Paravians...

Spoilers and Wild Speculation Ahead...




On the Black Rose prophecy, in order for the Fellowship to be restored to 7 (and I'm assuming it'll be the original members) Ciladis has to return. And since we know he's in some kind of stasis with the Paravians nearby, something must happen with the Paravians in order for him to be freed to return. So perhaps Arithon's willingness to embrace kingship, the final defeat of the Mistwraith, the return of the Paravians and Davien's reconciliation with the Law of the Major Balance and the rest of the Fellowship are all very closely linked.

If SF is suppose to bring to a close the threads began at the start of the Alliance of Light books then we might expect to see the Alliance of Light itself dealt with (broken or otherwise, it's already having problems), the resolution of Fionn Areth's birth prophecy (there are flaws in saying the deaths by Fire and Salt Water are passed, but I sort of think it anyhow. The death by salt water certainly, Fionn Areth having survived the Evenstar attack where Arithon indeed would have died with him), and a resolution of the Free Wraiths of Marak. All three really arose in Alliance of Light Pt1 (FP) afterall.

Wild speculation here:
If Arithon's talents can help deal with the Free Wraiths (which was the reason he was asked to give a blood oath to survive), then he could also deal with the Mistwraith. Freeing all the twisted spirits in the Mistwraith would resolve Traithe as a retored Fellowship member. It might also lead to the return of the Paravians (who I believe left because of the Mistwraith and won't return until it's taken care of) which would resolve Ciladis' reuniting with the Fellowship. The return of the Paravians would force a huge reckoning (settlement in the wrong places like Etarra, or on places that were Paravain dominated like Araethura and Carithwyr).

(here's where the really wild speculation starts) That huge reckoning could perhaps lead to Arithon embracing a wardenship or kingship of Athera (Cianor Sunlord was King of Athera). Davien apparantly has accepted Arithon's fitness to rule so he may place trust in a system based on Arithon, hence resolving his reunification with the Fellowship. Although the Fountain is credited for the long lifespan, surely Arithon could achieve the ability to extend his life in the same way Dakar and Verrain do. Arithon wouldn't be part of the Fellowship, but achieve a statis way beyond the rest of humanity (explaining why Dakar sees his aura differently). And since it was disclosed that the Fellowship are helping extend Elaira's life beyond what the Koriani are doing AND since it's been said Elaira could ask for Fellowship help in freeing herself from the Order (if she knew to ask), Elaira might be able to co-exist freely with him. Which would help Arithon deal with his new statis as king or whatever.