Archive through January 14, 2005

Janny Wurts Chat Area: Arc 3: Alliance of Light: Fugitive Prince, Grand Conspiracy; Peril's Gate & Traitor's Knot: Traitors Knot Discussions: Spoiler Topics: Wow...: Archive through January 14, 2005
   By Technetus on Sunday, December 26, 2004 - 10:18 am: Edit Post

SPOILERS, quite extensive ones too.

Greetings again, all; I appear after yet another slice of absense. Well... I got TK for Christmas. The day before I went through Terry Pratchett's Going Postal in four hours, and for some reason stayed in the same fast-reading mode when reading TK. I think I read the whole book in 9.5 hours total (not consecutive, mercifully).

Somebody please remind me never to try that on the first pass through any of Janny's books *ever again*. ;) As people who do anything that approaches speed-reading may know, oftentimes the words make absolutely no sense on the way in, and it's only later that the brain irons them out. I should have known better, given the precision of language Our Dear Author uses... it's playing about as much havoc in my head as a bloated iyat in a crystalwares shop. Don't be surprised if I don't make sense here or ramble excessively.

That said... ;)

That the necromancy thread had been hinted at previously, both when Sethvir cleansed the staff ("wailed like a small child" now makes unpleasant sense) and a vision revealed two meeting behind wards in Erdane, is now sorely obvious. What wasn't was that the dark practitioners would form cults, as opposed to acting in isolation for individual ends. That was useful; it reminded me that there are fouler "enlightened" practitioners at work on Athera than Morriel in both her guises.

I had expected that Sulfin Evend would *have* to become a moderating influence of sorts for Lysaer. What stunned me was the way it was done. *Two* caithdeinen for Tysan!? :o SE had wisdom even before meeting Asandir, plainly, to ask for a warding that could stand down Light bolts. This character is an interesting one, indeedy, and hopefully he won't get cut down too quickly. In a way he reminds me of a combination of Dakar and Caolle, somehow.

Lysaer... now, who was it who used to insist that all his friends should abandon him to fate, hmm? Hearing that from him was an eye-opener.

Davien... as expected, he makes both less and more sense this time around. His interactions with Dakar and the rest of the Seven *seemed* a little more revealing of him than those with Arithon, particularly when he referred to Sethvir by his birth name. I'll save my theories about him for email, for the time being.

The rest of the Seven... I do long for the moment when Sethvir is released from propping up grimwards...
The "aftshadowing" of Ciladis is going to drive many crazy, I suspect, particularly if he doesn't make an appearance in SF. ;)
Offhand, I can't think of a better host for SE while at Althain than Asandir. Others have commented that there was a lot of clothes-shedding this time around; I find myself thinking that Asandir seems all too willing to shed his flesh, albeit for necessity. ;) Also, while the Adept had the right to choose to assist him, does the Sorcerer not have the right to refuse such assistance?
The two discorporates were as amusing as ever, even when separate. Also: Kharadmon wielding *Drake magic*!? :o
Traithe was Traithe. What more could I ask for?

The sequences with Ellaine, Ianfar, Verrain and Kevor were enjoyable despite their seeming brevity; I would have liked to have seen the process by which an Erdani princess grew to enjoy boating around that hazardous swamp, but... she is not Talith, so I expect the acclimatisation would have been quite smooth. Likewise, the very idea of an armed force approaching Methisle to try and win her back made me laugh. Very loudly.

The s'Brydion... as enjoyable as the rest of the book, that's for sure. The machinations of Dawr and Arithon in front of the rest of the family aside, I was amused by their responses (both verbal and, well, percussive) to Fionn Areth. Now there's someone who could do with a week or so of Asandir's company...

Elaira, the Koriathain and the Prime... Morriel no longer has her succession as an immediate concern; she has been served counterattacks by both Davien and Arithon (twice, if you count Kieling Tower) on her efforts. If Arithon decides to hold Morriel/Selidie responsible for his friends' interruption (which, it could be argued, would not have happened if Elaira's aura had not been tampered with) then things are going to get unpleasant. I relish the thought of finding out if the old witch is really a slow learner who needs to be dragged into one of the Adepts' sacred groves. The motives of Elaira's personal crystal are as intriguing as the cracking of the Waystone. I suspect the fact Elaira's vows were made over the Skyron is going to become very important soon, as will her F7-supplied longevity. I note also that there was no apparent mention of her asking for Fellowship help to be released from the order this time out...
Lirenda doesn't seem to enjoy lying in the bed she made for herself, does she?

Nice to see Feylind has finally seen something resembling sense; now the role of Female Cause For Concern passes to Jeynsa.

Arithon. Dumping his excess baggage in the Maze is for me the second-best thing to have happened to him. The man has a way of conducting his business now that, even when I think he's making the wrong decision, he carries through with it in a manner that still demands applause. His actions to undermine the Light in the south were such that when they registered in mind (some two chapter-pieces later) I had to stop reading for laughter. The revelations about Alithiel were also interesting.

His final action to destroy the cultists had one line of extra dialogue inserted by my tired mind, namely their leader moaning, "Oh, this isn't *fair*!" just prior to being scoured. (Hey, it reminded me of the final destruction of the Agent Smiths; I couldn't help it!)

Overall: this will be reread. Much more slowly, and many, many times. And to Our Dear Author, I repeat what I said prior to Peril's Gate: I'll keep reading them as long as you keep writing them.


   By wolfhunter on Monday, December 27, 2004 - 07:33 am: Edit Post

I have finished reading TK now for about a week and I did a lot of thinking about it. So I must admit before writing down my thoughts. Although reading through this< i found a lot of ideas and impressions of other fellow readers extremely interesting.
I must admit that PG was my absolute favourite so far. TK is obviously missing the "bit at the end" (which makes waiting again a torture). It was a great ride and once into it, no chance of letting it out of your hand.
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S

Asandir: He and Sethvir are my heros, these guys are working their butts off, sometimes I wonder if humans are worth their effort. Asandir is generous and helpful. The way he treated SE is incredible, after all he had done to Arithons Cathdein. Why should they help SE or as a matter of fact Lysaer at all, since Lysaer obviously wants to be rid of the F7 on Athera, and I am sure they are aware of it. And Lysaer had been judged unworthy of his kingship. I can understand they were just trying to get rid of the necromancers, I hope this was the only reason they helped Lysaer.
Fionn Areth - God, that guy is a pain in the bum. I cannot believe Dakar can put up with him. When does he finally realise that Arithon is not the man that he was brainwashed into believing he was. He has seen so much now, he must be dumb. Shame, somehow I always thought that he and Feylind would be an item. But as so many times, I was wrong.
Dakar - poor Dakar. He really loves Arithon. He is his most loyal accomplice and like a brother to him. I know he did not endear himself to Arithon when he so rudely interrupted his long longed for union with Elaira. But he was just worried for him and the consequences their union could bring. Also, he was under pressure from Karadmon, and you cannot really blame him of his fear of the sorcerer. He really was reluctant and out of his own accord he would never have done what he was forced to do. I think he deserves a bit more respect from Arithon. The way he shuns Dakar at the end of TK is not really showing the compassion he usually has.
Elaira - she and Arithon waited soooooo long for this. I know she is a virgin but still, If they would have stormed into this was passion like a thunderstorm, they would have never been interrupted. Yes, I can see her eventually giving Morriel some curry, but she better get her killer instinct ready for action.
Sulfin Evend - he really has grown a lot. I admire him for his loyalty, even though it is wasted. Surely he must see that Lysaer is the one wasting all the lives with his constant war mongering all over the country side. He has seen how much under control of the course he is, and that he cannot control it. Ever. So what keeps him? A meeting between him and Arithon would indeed be very interesting.
Jeynsa - I thought so much more of her. She is Jierets daughter and behaves like a litte spoiled brat. I expected a lot more of her and I only hope that she will come to learn more about Arithon and embrace her task as cathdein and support Arithon. So far she is sorry for herself and sulks. It just did not seem to fit the picture.
Arithon - what can I say. All the tribulations he has to endure often make my gut churn. Although the experience with the necromancers were horrific, he also learned a great deal. He also achieved this without the F7 help. Although Davien ahd his hands in this - for what end though? His attempt in convincing the S'Brydion brothers was nice but there was no way they would agree. Maybe Mearn is the brainiest of this bunch and Arithon can get some sense into him.
Davien - I must agree with many of the others. I like him a lot less than in PG. I understand that he is honing Arithons talents - though for what purpose really is still hidden from me. But yes, the way he spoke to Sethvir was rude. He has not respect for the hard work the F7 do. It is all easy from him not being involved in any work, and then popping up here and there and making a smart comment.

So here you are. I am sure I am just up the garden path where Janny wanted me to be. But why not, I love surprises. Especially Janny's surprises!! SF cannot come quick enough.
Cheers
Wolfhunter


   By winter on Tuesday, December 28, 2004 - 12:00 pm: Edit Post

So I've been having this thought/question and am going to throw it out to Janny. Ok, so I know that "heir apparent" is the person next in line, and the "heir presumptive" is the one next (Prince Charles and Prince William respectively). So what exactly is the "heir designate?" Is it an heir who isn't the obvious choice from an ordinary stand point but has been chosen (as with s'Brydion choosing a cousin) since Kyrialt is the younger son?

Janny, assuming the heir designate is the one intended for succession, does that mean that Kyrialt is to be the next Caithdein for Shand? Is this allowed considering that he is now sworn to Rathain (as it was stated that his children would be Rathain subjects)? Would there not be a problem with the steward of one Kingdom being sworn to a foreign prince?

I was also wondering if the s'Dieneval line survived to the present day of Traitor's Knot? Mentioning the unborn child and flight to Durn can't be nothing, and I'm sure you won't tell the full significance of s'Dieneval survival, but can we at least know if we'll be seeing a s'Dieneval at some point (if we haven't already and not known)?
Thanks!


   By Trys on Tuesday, December 28, 2004 - 12:25 pm: Edit Post

winter,

A couple of definitions from the net:

"heir apparent: a heir apparent is one who is certain to inherit from a deceased unless he or she dies first or unless he or she is taken out of the will.

or

an heir whose right to an inheritance cannot be defeated if that person outlives the ancestor"

"heir presumptive: a person who expects to inherit but whose right can be defeated by the birth of a
nearer relative"

I did not find a definition of heir designate but did find references that lead me to believe that an heir designate is an heir that has been selected. For example a king may designate his second son as the heir which would override, assuming no form of insurrection results, the heir apparent who would be the first son.

Janny can clarify, but if memory serves, positions (kings, earls, etc.) are not inherited (heir apparents) but are chosen (designated) by the F7 as in the case of Jeynsa s'Valerient.

Trys


   By max on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 08:19 am: Edit Post

NAKED MEN???????? HOTDIGGITYDAWG!!!!!! Now I really AM looking forward to this read. I may even have to take a couple of days off. Sound like more fun than I have had in quite awhile. [grinning at ya]


   By Janny Wurts on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 02:29 pm: Edit Post

Winter - You Asked.

Mostly information - MINOR SPOILERS!

Old Blood Succession - as under charter law - does not go by direct descent - (as was defined quite plainly by Masterbard Halliron in Curse of the Mistwraith when Arithon questioned his right to inherit as a "bastard" before High Earl Steiven)

Nor do kings or caithdein always rule until death - (Unlike town mayors, who are elected or selected by town council, but then hold their post for life)

Successions to High Kingship are ALWAYS without exception chosen and acknowledged by the Fellowship Sorcerers, primarily Asandir, as his nickname "kingmaker" implies. THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONS. If there are multiple blood relations (even cousins) to select from, the choice will follow Two factors: first, individual strength of character. Second, Calling - by this, the personal outlook of the choice would be the one, male or female, who had the best APTITUDE for the post - thus, if Arithon had more than one relative, he may fully fit the Character bill, but his calling, as musician and initiate may NOT have been most harmonious to the post - and a cousin or relation who had character but more aptitude for the throne (as in would have found fulfillment and contentment in the position) may have been chosen instead.

Caithdeinen are appointed for character and the ability to think individually. In times of peace, under a Fellowship appointed High King, they would have been selected from the lineage - a person close enough to the crowned ruler to KNOW them, and one with the guts to think his or her own thoughts - NOT a sycophantic personality, in short. These heirs are Designate - appointed by their elders. Kyrialt therefore was Designate for Shand, as is Ianfar to Tysan. An heir designate will inherit UNLESS the choice is overruled by a Fellowship Sorcerer. Which would only happen if the choice were corrupt.

In Fugitive Prince, when Jeynsa is chosen by Asandir - it is clearly pointed out that a Fellowship Sorcerer ONLY intervenes DIRECTLY by executing the choice of a caithdein IF!!! the royal lineage is immediately threatened. If the royal lineage fails, therefore, that Caithdein would be steward for the throne IN FACT. Royal lineages are irreplaceable. Nor are they "transplantable" from another kingdom's selected, bound line.

s"Brydion will NEVER become the next royal line for Melhalla. There's a specific set of reasons...

This could get a little involved, as there is a good deal of complexity that is not apparent yet in the story line.....basically, there are old lineages and old lineages....all the old lineages, first were Paravian chosen when the compact was made. Royal lines were Paravian choices, that were then ACCEPTED in free will consent. There were some lineages that stood for land rule - these stood as liaison to the Paravians and petitioned for what could and could not be altered concerning the land. They were sworn to protect and preserve the free wilds. There were others selected for character to sit the rule of a town-based seat - such checks and balances within the system were designed to thwart private concerns and blind ambition from dividing the original INTENT of the compact: to hold Athera's great mysteries and all that supported them IN BALANCE with human affairs.

S'Brydion therefore ruled a keep town without a focus circle - not within the free wilds, but allied with charter law....AS the old towns were ruled, once, before the uprising. They ruled, direct, regulating the administration of the King's Justice in accord with charter law - in further liaison with the other old lineages appointed the land rule.

High Kings were land rule, set overall - they were the liaison to the Paravians, spokesmen for the Free wilds, AND the final justice above such as the s'Brydion, who administered directly to human affairs.

Old blood - were Paravian chosen...and each lineage only remained so by constant testing - the trial of Paravian presence was the determinant factor.

Townborn - COULD undergo the same test, by free will choice - in rare cases this has occurred, and a new lineage might (theoretically) happen - just as an old lineage could theoretically fail. Lacking Paravian presence, the factor that determines one way or the other has become a BIT blurred - it's now harder to identify talent with such a definitive touch. Those whose talent is too latent, or too buried, or too deafened to access - those ones are not going to be able to "tell" why this or that lineage can function as it does. So to a "tone deaf" townborn - there will be no "apparent" reason that the free wilds should not be just another acre of earth, ripe for exploitation. Nor will they fully realize that the old blood gifts are not arbitrary, either.

The absence of the Paravians has therefore created a schism that is become increasingly difficult for each "side" to reconcile. The "side" wearing the tinted sunglasses doesn't "get" the other side who see in a wider range of color....and those who see can't make a case convincing enough to point out what bits of the "spectrum" are missing.

Heir Designate for a land rule or a caithdein's post then is a statement of intent on the part of the elders - setting forth their choice to inherit the post - and this appointment can be (and has been) upset by either a CROWNED High King (which involves FOUR attuned initiations) or a Fellowship Sorcerer's direct veto -- prior to or during the ceremony of investiture, at which such an authority would be present. An heir chosen by Fellowship auspice AUTOMATICALLY will become invested without question - that ceremony is a formality upon the moment that oath is sworn to accept the post. Jeynsa, therefore, "owns" the power by default - she has but to "claim" it.

Kyrialt as designate WAS slated as Erlien's heir - but his full and final inheritance would not have been assured until the moment rule passed from his father. I made him a youngest son to, once again, MAKE SURE the reader didn't fall into the Earth based fallacy of presuming that heirships to land rules OR the old ruling seats just went to the nearest, oldest male relative in direct descent.

Now that he is under oath to Rathain, Arithon Teir's'Ffalenn is his liege. He therefore has forfeit all ties to Shand, saving perhaps that of blood lineage - by this, IF Erlien's line were wiped out (as there is not any present danger, him having so many mistresses and offspring) - then one of Kyrialt's descendents MAY be called to fill the post for Shand, if left vacant.

Erlien will need to name a new Heir Designate, and that one will be selected as the most worthy of his lineage, direct descent or NOT.

Note here that Ianfar was Maenol s'Gannley's cousin - and is still heir designate for Tysan.

Note: an heir designate may hold ONLY the caithdein's potential appointment without ties to the land's rule - as in the case of Barach inheriting the High Earl's title and Jeynsa taking the caithdein's seat. Such arrangements were often done when the High King was apt to be on the move - the land's rule could remain in place, while the Caithdein remained by the side of the king. If the king left the KINGDOM, however, the caithdein was expected to remain as steward during the absence. Jieret's departures from form did indeed reflect the strain of the times - which was why Caolle stood liegeman at the royal shoulder at Riverton.

Next Question which of course bears on Child of Prophecy - s'Dieneval's lineage survived through Dari s'Ahelas.

Lysaer and Arithon and Kevor, therefore, carry that potential strain of inheritance - as would any offspring of the s'Ahelas mages on Dascen Elur.

Meiglin s'Dieneval had no other children.


   By Hannah on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 09:44 pm: Edit Post

Janny, very fascinating! Will have to read through that more closely when the TV isn't blaring in my ear.

A few questions that I had before reading this post, and since.

There is somewhere a figure of how many kings of whichever lineage there have been since the first crowned king of that line, and we did a rough figure of how long each king would have ruled on average, and IIRC, it was not very long indeed, and we discussed the reasons why that might be. Has Eldir ruled an unusually long time then, in the scheme of things? Or is it not very unusual of a reign?

SPOILER FOR TK:

When Arithon is trying to convince the s'Brydions to give up Alestron, he says something along the lines of 'let the old bloodlines/family be reconciled', sorry for the bad paraphrase, but the book is in my car and it's wet and cold outside. I'm sure you know what line I mean. Anyhow, my question when reading that was did Arithon mean for a reconciliation between clan families such as s'Brydion and s'Taleyn, or between clan families and townbred? Is there any kind of... seperation or difference between the two designations of old blood families as they interact with each other, or do they get along like peanut butter and jelly? That doesn't really convey my question well. Uh, do they think of each other as different types of clansmen, or... the same?

Grr, stupid TV. I can't really put my question into the right words.

Are the residents of Alestron mostly clanspeople, or townsmen, or a mixture? I've always wondered about the type of men in the Duke's employ--Talvish and Vhan, I guess I assumed they were clansmen similar to the s'Brydions, but have we been told for certain (in so many words)?

Did Jeynsa as an infant consciously accept her position as heir... I assume she had the free choice? I should reread that chapter. It'll be so much more meaningful now.

I had another question, but TV is Teh Distraction. Sorry for the incoherence. Your post just raised a gaggle of questions. :D


   By Hannah on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 09:08 am: Edit Post

Oh, I remembered my other question while lying in bed last night. Janny, you said:

Successions to High Kingship are ALWAYS without exception chosen and acknowledged by the Fellowship Sorcerers, primarily Asandir, as his nickname "kingmaker" implies.

Does this mean that Asandir himself usually soley decides on the successor from his own wisdom, or is it usually something that is a decision reached by the Fellowship in agreement?


   By Janny Wurts on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 11:20 am: Edit Post

Hannah - You Asked.

The High Kings who ruled during Paravian times had shorter reigns - provided there were plenty of family members to draw from. This was a VERY rigorous post - many died young. Some reigned only a month or a year or two - or even for a matter of days. Some had longer reigns. This has to do with the Nature of how they interacted with the Paravians - how many times they needed to stand as liaison - and how well they could cope with their lives, after such encounter(s)....it has everything to do with the Paravian interaction, as they were the primary focus. Something not easy to understand until the story unfolds further.

TK SPOILERS AHEAD - tho this material is primarily informational -

Arithon asked the s'Brydion to 'reconcile' the standing mistrust with the old blood lines - and this referred to the schism arisen between the compact-driven clan interests and town based misunderstanding. There is no schism between old blood lines, or those who still follow charter law, as the underlying REASON for those laws would still be very much apparent.

Note: Sulfin Evend's encounter with his heritage after swearing oath at Althain and awakening to his family line's gifts. His trip into Avenor is an eye opener that WILL change how he thinks.

There seems to be a persistent tendency among readers to "box" this system into rigid boundaries - when in fact, it was more open ended than you may realize - the text does support this, but "colored glasses" effect often seems to obscure what is actually set down.

At the forming of the compact, the drake spawn issue was largely contained. Paravians were in fact leaving their Second Age fortifications - which were tied into Athera's mysteries (had focus circles) and were very VERY sensitive ground. Mankind required shelter - therefore, there was a need met - those who COULD live on such sites were appointed charge of them. The appointments that happened in First Age Year One were to those individuals with the strongest heritable family traits - those "gifted" with the ability to perceive in the necessary range to UNDERSTAND what they were to guardian. These rulers also were charged to handle liaison to the high resonance land that could not be disturbed - the designated "free wilds" where Mankind could not have the right to "free will trespass"

Other areas were not so critically sensitive - and there, new towns were built for those who had less natural "tolerance" to the higher resonance of the Second age sites....land was given over to agriculture and roads, to what men needed to raise families and survive. The governing seats for these had a council, presided over by a family chosen for tenacity of character AND aware gift - and these "seats" were appointed AFTER Year One. Here, men had "free will" to do as they pleased, use the land as they wished, BASED ON certain precepts laid down by "charter right" to settle that territory. Alestron fell into this catagory. So did Hanshire. A mixed population would inhabit these towns - with the least sensitive finding MOST comfort in those smaller villages and areas furthest from the free wilds.

Therefore, to a certain degree, "tolerance" for the higher resonance sites determined who could live where - and who was comfortable in those locales. This factor tended to "isolate" the older lineages to a degree - as did the need to keep a next generation of children able to handle the duties set forth by the compact....mixed bloodlines tended to fail more often, and parents were naturally protective of their children's chances of a successful 'testing'. There were records kept of the lineages, and of the favorable "crosses."

While townsmen as a general population were not inclined toward this sort of expanded awareness, it must be noted: such qualities - such propensity to perceive - is inherent in mankind. Whether it is latent or not depends upon the individual - where their focus lies, how they live, what they choose to believe, how they grow and change and seek to develop themselves. We have naturally gifted athletes, but we also have people who train and learn to develop their physical gifts. Who work like crazy, practice, develop their BRAINS and arrive where they will through sheer force of character.

Latent gifts of any kind can be awakened. ANY town person not naturally inclined COULD choose to develop dormant awareness. Not many do - because people generally like to stay in their "comfort zone" unless pushed by circumstance to change. People who live by their physical senses tend to get pretty discomfortably pretty fast, at the idea there is more going on than they can see, feel, touch, smell or taste....it's easier to "disown" the existence of such stuff, since it can't be grappled or easily rationalized. Radio or TV is fine when it is translated into sound by a "gadget" but damned if we want to waste a moment understand the frequency or wavelength, or spend a second of thought on those "unseen" energies as the carrier for complex information....the very 'concept' of direct translation without a gadget - ??? get off it!!!

Get the gist?

Encounter with a Paravian was powerful enough to incite change by resonance - not everyone wants that sort of baptism by fire....you encounter, you come back NOT THE SAME. Living in the Free Wilds would also favor a shift....as would time spent in a place on top of a focus circle, IF building and life surrounding did not interfere with that innate lane flow to "break" its pattern, and so reduce resonant frequency.

Therefore, over the course of Third Age residency, mankind tended to "clump" itself into enclaves of greater or lesser sensitivity - isolation and geography being what they are...the old lines got stronger, the weaker or complacent ones got "blinder" and saw the rulings done by compact as "not having much actual foundation" in the senses they COMPREHENDED AND UNDERSTOOD.

Therefore, MOST Second Age sites fell to ruin after the uprising. Jaelot being one of the exceptions. Hence, Halliron's bemusement when his party entered that town in Ships.

To cross free wilds, or pass by the old ways, or hang out in the old ruins CHANGES perception by resonance....which is well noted in the text.

There were no "better thans" attached to old lineage gift, nor stigma attached to townborn. The lines between are not fixed, or "cultural" but a matter of awareness, ability to listen, see and hear - a matter of tuning the brain to receive on a wider spectrum. Easiest to encompass if it "runs in the blood" but that is not a fixed prerequisite...for a "deaf" townborn to change would require SLOW CHANGE to assimilate the shift...or madness could result. This is not a concept outside cultural understanding HERE - what is "insanity" anyway?

Last query:

Asandir - or for that matter - ANY Fellowship Sorcerer would possess the perception to KNOW a candidate - they see deeply enough, and widely enough to make assessment based on probability - therefore, any of them on their own could assess or choose a crown candidate. Asandir does this, for the most part, as he has most aptitude for executive action - as in, he DOES the doing, which is why he is the preeminent Sorcerer in the field.

As individuals - Each of the Sorcerers has their natural strengths and inclinations. These fall in different ranges and areas. No two alike. No one more than another. Davien could NOT do Sethvir's job, nor vice versa....each has his specific field of expertise.


   By Trys on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 01:40 pm: Edit Post


quote:

what is "insanity" anyway?


A couple of possible answers:

1) The ability to perceive reality in a way radically different from the accepted norm.

2) The ability to perceive other realities that overlay the one generally accepted as the only one.

If an individual can do either of these but has difficulty integrating their lives into existing society or makes the mistake and tells others about it, then they may be branded as 'mentally unstable' or worse and because we (society) tend to not honor free will may have their freedoms revoked.

A generally accepted humorous comment. "the sane are in the asylums, the madmen are running the world" now takes on a different context.

Trys


   By Andrew Ginever on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 06:02 pm: Edit Post

Hmmm.... I think that perhaps someone should have given a copy of Janny's explanation to Morriel/Selidie, perhaps in big, bold letters:

"Stay away from Second Age ruins and power focii (and perhaps, former hostels of Aths Adepts) unless you are prepared to be changed, whether you wish it or not, whether it fits inside your world view or not!"

or perhaps:

"Warning: Athera reserves the right to act in free will and alter your destiny for the good of all beings living on the planet. Enter at your own risk."

I'm sure Lirenda could have benefitted from this advice too, given her dealings in Jaelot in GC.

To me, the explanation adds depth regarding the Koriani, and brings Asandir's comment to Elaira from Cotm to mind ("Lesser strength does not add up to uselessness").
"
:-)
Andrew


   By Hannah on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 12:06 am: Edit Post

Janny, thanks so much! Very riveting, and I think just your last two posts are going to do a great deal for how much more I'm able to perceive of the interactions between the clans and the lands they inhabit. I hadn't clearly understood the reason for the seperation any more than "The old bloodlines can withstand Paravian presence, but townsmen cannot."

Furthermore, I really admire the fact that you respect us readers enough to give further explanation when it doesn't conflict with future story, rather than take a "Just wait and see, just wait and see" attitude. Or getting some pleasure from watching us fumble around blindly trying to grasp context. :-)


   By Michael Griffiths on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 02:07 pm: Edit Post

I loved the book, but want to read more. :-)

Also, am I the ONLY one who likes Davien better after TK?


   By Blue on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 06:54 pm: Edit Post

Michael, I am still trying to figure Davien out. I like him as a mystery, but the man is a TOUGH one to figure out.


   By Kam on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 08:38 pm: Edit Post

Michael,

No, no, you're not. :P


   By Arend on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 01:10 pm: Edit Post

I might be misremembering...

When Dakar "sees" the daughter, he doesn't actually remember that he made the prediction. I seem to remember a comment that when Dakar does not remember the prophecy _will_ come true. Correct?


   By Aria on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 06:57 pm: Edit Post

No Michael you're not the only one. I like the bugger too. :D


   By Arend on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 08:45 pm: Edit Post

Actually, I don't like Davien much, possibly even less than before; the same goes for the rest of the F7 with the exception of Ciladis, whom we have not seen yet. I can't argue from Davien's motives, in the sense that the whole interaction with the rest of the Fellowship is still way too unclear. There's so much history. It's more his condescending attitude towards Arithon that puts my teeth on edge, and I am highly suspicious of geniuses who know what's best for the world. The rest of the F7 for tying Arithon in even more knots with his blood oath.

Janny, direct question to you that I've carried around for a while: how do simple human characteristics or emotions like arrogance, compassion, irritation, love, etc mesh with the deeper (?) complexity of the beings that make up the F7? Should I think of them as ripples on a pond (humans) vs. ripples on an ocean (sorceror)? We argue a lot about the motives of the F7 in our threads and I always feel a little uncomfortable doing that to beings that are---in some sense---aliens.


   By Neil on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 03:36 am: Edit Post

The F7 are bound so some of their actions for the "good of the world", based on strands scrying might not be ideal but it may just be that they don't have a choice?

Davien is avoiding direct involvement in Etarra but is happy to aid Arithon. Luhaine and Sethvir don't appear "impressed"..."you are not his grace's friend" blah blah blah...

But Davien is already a step ahead I think. He is also capable of hiding his presence from an Ath's adept. An innovative development...

Davien could have stepped in at Etara (discussion with Sethvir) but Davien judged Etarra an important lesson for Arithon. Perhaps Arithon needs this for prepartion for further tasks where Davien can't intervene (drake binding) or it is an extra tool against the mistwraith curse/Koriani/free wraiths/mistwraith?

I particularly like Arithon's exchanges with Dakar in Etarra. Certainly the Question: "Why didn't you tell me?" Answer: "you didn't enquire" seems to be a parody of the F7 policy of "no marketing" :-)

Roll on Stormed Fortress...If only the Alestron bunch would just melt away...Lysaer would have nothing to do...


   By Róisín on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:44 am: Edit Post

spoiler - spoiler - spoiler
Etarra - Janny: I was wondering, there are two questions I have:

Arithon rejected reading the Grimoires on necromancy. Then Traithe had to intervene at the last minute and give him instruction -

how much information did he receive from traithe?

Arithon was captured, weakened and subjected to the rituals - In my mind - he made a mistake perhaps in not reading the grimoires, but in not doing so, it opened the way for him to reaffirm the paravian 'grace' in him. Would he have found it in a less gruesome, suffering manner?
Was there an easier path to knowledge/wisdom at first?

I'm speculating that the fear he seemed to need to get over: that the Mistwraithe will use new knowledge. Perhaps in this case it's healthy fear...

I'm afraid I have to disagree with the image of Arithon (and other characters) butt-kicking Janny. *grin* When he looks back on his story, I think he'd thank her profoundly - without the challenges he faced, and the hints he received, he wouldn't be mastering his gifts.

(Message edited by admin on January 12, 2005)


   By Blue on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 05:46 pm: Edit Post

Spoiler Maybe

Actually, Roisin, I have the image of Don Maitz coming into Janny's studio one morning and saying, "I think you should see this."

Janny stands up, looking puzzled, and follows him into their main living room and looks out the window.

An organized picket line, marching and carrying signs with slogans, made up of the WoLaS characters. Lysaer, of course, is shouting into a bullhorn, carrying Giorgio Armani bags, and complaining about the "tacky" wardrobe he is forced to endure.

Arithon is standing to the side, looking at his brother and shaking his head. He spots Janny, and holds up his sign for her to read: "Wurts unfair to musicians!"

A bit of a squabble ensues, as a bunch of the characters break off at seeing Janny, and render their own complaints, somehow trying to win sympathy that Janny has done THEM more wrong than Arithon. "I want a new Waystone, and I am suing for assault, physical injury, and emotional distress, thanks to that fire spell!" yells Selidie.

"What about me?" says Dakar, "I'm not getting enough time in either a tavern or in a brothel for compensation, especially considering what I have to put up with!"

Janny turns to Don and says, "Well, that's something I'll bet Ray [Feist] won't be able to top. I'm being picketed by figments of my own imagination."


   By Wendy Collett on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 12:33 am: Edit Post

Hysterical, Blue!! Just Hysterical!!


Lucky me! I've just finished TK, got it for Christmas but was still reading through the series to move straight into it.

I perhaps read it a little fast, I did get a little confused on some of the dialogue on who was saying what, where, but this also happened with Hell's Chasm also. On a second re-read of HC I was able to sort more of it out in better order. It won't be unusual to read the book again in more detail very soon, just give me a little while to think some things through...

As I sat there reading through intently and intensivly, occassional words sprang out in the silent room... to the effect of

'You Bitch', to Morriel - several times!
'Oh-Oh-Oh-Oh-OH!!!!@' when I spotted some valid little sentence, when a 'penny struck'.
Followed by more hysterics at the antics on the south coast, especially with the whores and the priests. What an excellent thing to constantly re-enact each year!


SPOILER, SPOILER, SPOILER











This is just a few little interesting points I did see so far:

Davien, when talking with Sethvir refers to the LIVING (dragon) mate of one of those in the grimwards. A LIVING DRAGON.

(Note: In PG - When the crux time of the solstic came upon them, Sethvir commented to the adept that if the worst happened, Asandir would return to a mess, and would have to try and recall a dragon.)

So - where are the dragons hiding? With the Paravians?

An earlier book suggested they could be sleeping under the volcanos that Morriel tried to cap with the Weystone - WoVM?



Several times, in several books, TIME itself becomes discussed, and all indications are that a 'pocket of time' can be cut out of real time. Lysaers meeting with the F7 happens 'outside of time'. Kharadmon mentions that it is 'too late' to cut Arithon & Elaira in their time together by separating out the 'time'.


By reading through the glossary at the back, it does actually provide some insights into where some people and things have happened etc, that are NOT mentioned directly in the book.

Such as - Eneth Tuer (the seeress from Erdane) - she WAS a Koriani until the F7 helped release her from her vows. An interesting precendent... She's dead now, but don't bet it won't come to Elaira's attention, maybe through SE, who did seem to know she was there in the first place.

That's another point - SE knows much more than he says so far. So how did he know about Eneth in Erdane when he had never been there? Maybe an overheard old Koriani 'dark tale'?


And then there is the discussion between Davien and Arithon, and I can't believe the Ciladis fans haven't mentioned it yet. Davien says something along the lines that the F7 believe that Ciladis has been 'captured' - I think was the exact word used.

Just why would you (as a Paravian), want to capture a F7 sorcerer and hold him against 'FREE WILL', which would be against the LoMB?


   By Hannah on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 10:07 am: Edit Post

Wendy,

I always assumed (dangerous) that since the Paravians must surely have a valid reason for their actions, they must have convinced Ciladis, and he chose of his own volition to remain with them. Maybe the sleep spells he's kept under were meant as a kindness, so he wouldn't be tortured by his decision to dwell with them for the time being, rather than assist his colleagues who need him.


   By Hunter on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 01:28 pm: Edit Post

If the dragon was recalled from his/her sleep, there would be no need for the grimward then right??

My feeling is that Ciladis did find the Paravians and that he learnt something that he wasn't allowed to return to tell until something happens which he would mess up if he told ahead of time.. So I think Ciladis is held "voluntarily" with a set criteria for him to awaken - the return of sunlight was not sufficient.

I've never seen the answer to *how* Ciladis left to search, the TK glossary says he left the continent in search of the Paravians - given he is corporate, I can only presume he got in a boat and went sailing - which is kind of what Arithon did. Unless of course he went through one of the Worlds End gates - after Janny has said that the Paravians did visit the worlds through the Gates..


   By Janny Wurts on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 01:38 pm: Edit Post

Roisin -- YOU ASKED.



POSSIBLE SPOILERS FOR TK AHEAD - though the info is mostly informational.

First: there is always an "easier road" to knowledge - possibilities, probabilities, are infinite, it's imagination that fails to see far enough, or leave room for a possibility mind cannot see.

Second: Traithe gave the knowledge - all of it - but because it was NOT in the orignal book form, it would have another "slant" on it - due to the fact the delivery was one step removed from the original author/creator. Arithon did not voluntarily accept it at Kewar; he was given a second chance to see what he needed, and took it, since to walk in eyes open was the ONLY way he could handle what was asked.

He took that acceptance, still holding the fear -

He created his "solution" -- handling the fear, willing to bear it forward...but not yet resolving it -- and his dissolution of the PROBLEM at his (and the Fellowship's feet) was a far step beyond what the Sethvir, Kharadmon and Luhaine and Traithe thought or hoped he could achieve at the time.

At TK's closing - SPOILER - the driving seed that's at the core of that fear still lies with the Mistwraith.

This is where the story left you - - -


   By max on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 05:56 am: Edit Post

Janny, I can hear you when you say that we can read thru in two days what it took you two years to write. An analogy comes to mind... Our mother preparing a beautiful holiday dinner that took a couple of days to prepare, with lit candles and crystal ware all laid out with two different forks etc. etc. When all came into dinner, they ravaged the table like a pack of wolves, and afterward the area looked like a stripped carcass. It used to make our mother crazy and one year she threw the turkey on the floor, she got so mad. [yes, she should have been on medication] I myself have been tempted to just tell them on holiday dinner days to just go slop themselves at the trough!! [grinning at ya]


   By Trys on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 11:49 am: Edit Post

max,

Maybe she should have put the frozen turkey in the middle of the table and see how long it took 'em to gnaw through it. <g>

Trys