Archive through July 13, 2005

Janny Wurts Chat Area: Arc 3: Alliance of Light: Fugitive Prince, Grand Conspiracy; Peril's Gate & Traitor's Knot: Traitors Knot Discussions: Spoiler Topics: Arithon on the slab...: Archive through July 13, 2005
   By neilw on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 05:40 am: Edit Post


Elaira has been given the chance in the past to "ask" by the Fellowhip...the F7 sometimes "bend the rules" to try to ilicit questions from others (ex. Asandir + Dakar near the grimward in FP). If I remember correctly, Elaira was too independant to ask for their help and so missed a chance to be free, for the moment.

Sean, that's a new idea to me. I think you're right.

Ric, my understanding is that Ath's adepts are human and would not have existed before the 3rd age. Therefore they did not exist at the beginning of the 3rd age to block any humans arriving. In any case the Paravians accepted the humans.

Supporting "free will" seems more important than destroying necromancy. But maybe we don't know enough of the background here yet?

It'll be interesting to see whether necromancy continues to play a part in the future arcs. Will Arithon feel obliged to root out the other cults or train others to do so? Sethvir also has a scar on his arm so at one point has fallen prey to necromancy?

I spotted another reference to necromancy that I had missed before TK. (In GC Elaira tells Feylind that Moriel hates necromancy and hedge-witches).

   By Hunter on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 07:46 am: Edit Post


Sean - what leads you to that conclusion? To me the discussion between Sethvir and Davien when Davien challenges Sethvir's priorities leads me to the exact opposite conclusion.

And this has wider implications for what other aspects (good and bad, mostly bad) of humanity the Fellowship let in when they decided to allow the human refuges to settle on Athera. The technology issues which resulted in the creation of the Mistwraith were a result of this humanity.

"In any case the Paravians accepted the humans". I don't believe the Paravians *accepted* the humans - as I understand the Compact, the Paravians accepted the Fellowships assurances that humanity would behave according to the Compact and be kept under control - the limitations set out in the Compact. The Paravians allowed the Fellowship to stand surety for humanity I think for two reasons - firstly because the Fellowship saved the Paravians from extinction and, secondly, the drakes binding to ensure Paravian survival has not been fulfilled and completed so it would still bind the Fellowship to ensure Paravian survival before humanities - as Asandir foreshadows in the boat ride early in Grand Conspiracy.

   By Trys on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 02:09 pm: Edit Post


I'm not so sure that the Paravians were involved in the drafting/construction of the Compact. This may be solely of Fellowship design (thus Davien's issues with how it was implemented). I think it safe to assume (dangerous word) that the F7's binding would ensure that the Compact was structured in way that would ensure those areas of the wild necessary for Paravian survival.


   By Miranda on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 07:44 pm: Edit Post


(I think...)

Re. Arithon on the slab - seems like an obvious question, apologies to all if I'm being very stupid, but is there any reason that Morriel couldn't have seen Fionn and mistaken him for Arithon? Admittedly it seems unlikely that Fionn would be capable of forming an acerbic remark under even the most favourable conditions, let alone at such a nasty moment, but assuming it was Arithon the Koriani were after, and Fionn they'd got, I should think even Fionn would recognise the irony of the position and manage to comment on it. This seems a little unlikely if only because you would think the Koriani would be able to tell them apart by mage sight if not by normal sight, but perhaps the binding caused Fionn's Name to become warped or shot through with something like Arithon's? Besides, those witches have proved themselves to be pretty incompetent when it comes to dealing with Arithon. When, incidentally, was Fionn 'created', so to speak?

   By Sean Monahan on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 10:55 pm: Edit Post

"Sean - what leads you to that conclusion? To me the discussion between Sethvir and Davien when Davien challenges Sethvir's priorities leads me to the exact opposite conclusion."

I'll have to reread that section. It just seemed that the F7 had the choice to expel humanity, and would have done so if there was a threat like the one posed by necromancy. At the time, the Koriani were an organization to help humanity, so they could have gotten in that way.

   By Hunter on Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 02:56 am: Edit Post


My take on Davien's discussion with Sethvir is thus:

The Compact was necessary, the Mistwraith created and Paravian survival put into jeopardy because when the remnants of humanity arrived on Athera seeking sanctuary, the Fellowship - especially Sethvir and Asandir - even though they'd been redeemed and were still bound to Paravian survival by the drake's binding, still felt responsibility for what had caused the great cataclysm and, in Davien's opinion, allowed their belief and implied responsibility for the human refugees to override their stated and bound responsibility to ensure Paravian survival. So the trials, problems and issues created by what came with that human population - that was allowed in by the Fellowship - was laid squarely at the feet of Asandir and Sethvir by Davien. This included the necromancy of the Kralovir and other cults, included the Koriani and, of course, those who wished to pursue proscribed technology who eventually created the Mistwraith on Marak (which is not to say that the Mistwraith couldn't have been created in any case on another world, however the World's End gates created as part of the Compact allowed the Mistwraith into Athera).

Davien's view was that the drakes' binding override any past responsibility to humanity. Even Asandir says in GC that the Fellowship's service is not to it's own kind - which doesn't seem to be the case when they allowed humanity onto Athera. It's very likely, given he fomented the rebellion, that Davien's opinion was simply that humanity was incapable of redeeming itself and behaving properly and to let anyone in was to imperil the Paravian homeland beyond redemption. It might have taken five millennia, but it's hard to escape the conclusion that Davien has some foundation to his argument.

Trys - I agree that the Paravians didn't participate in the creation of the Compact - but I still think they outlined the terms of the Compact which the Fellowship swore on behalf of the refugees. So the Compact is inheritently a Paravian approved doc.

   By Auna on Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 01:12 pm: Edit Post

spoilers spoilers spoilers....

Guilt may have played a part in the decision, but I think compassion also led to allowing humans to stay. The refugees were frightened and traumatized and many would have died if they got sent away (my feeling). I'm a little dismayed that Davien could have turned them away. However, I also understand his point of view - that the system as set up would never allow the Fellowship to be free of their binding and they would forever have the threat of annihilating the humans hanging over their heads.

They did let in all the bad people as well as the good. That was also hinted at.

There was a passage in FP where the Fellowship is dressing down Lysaer and casting him out that mentions something about Paravians dictating the terms of the compact. Of course that could just mean that Paravian survival made the Fellowship choose certain restrictions and that Paravians never read the doc.

   By Sean Monahan on Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 06:01 pm: Edit Post

Is then it Davien's attempt to allow the necromancers and townsman to take over the continent, breaking the compact, and forcing the F7 to kill them all? The rebellion could be the first step of this, as was his treatment of Arithon.

   By Hunter on Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 06:06 pm: Edit Post

My thoughts are whether the drakes' redemption was the Fellowship's version of Kewar. The drakes granted them redemption but perhaps the Fellowship weren't able to forgive themselves absolution from past sins.

I compare this with the two s'Ffalenns who have gone into Kewar. Kamridian wasn't able to reconcile what he had done and died in Kewar. Arithon was granted release by the Paravians, accepted his past actions, resolved within himself what he had done and was able to forgive and grow - so he survived.

In some ways, the Fellowship are more like Kamridian - yes they got absolution, but have they been able to forgive themselves. More important - I think a probing question Asandir asked Arithon several times is worthy of applying to the Fellowship - i.e. his question to Arithon - "so prince, are you guilty?".

We know the Fellowship in their past lift were (as they say) responsible for the great weapon that laid waste to the worlds of the universe. Its hard to imagine them pulling the trigger/pushing the button to start this. Its more believable that something they did allowed such a weapon to be created (cf. splitting the atom led to the atom bom) hence they still think themselves responsible. But are they guilty?

   By Auna on Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 07:45 pm: Edit Post

I believe Davien used the necro situation to further hone Arithon into the tool he plans to use for some future purpose. We'll just have to see how much Davien gets affected by being around Arithon ;)

I'd love to know exactly how the Fellowship was involved in the destruction of the worlds. It sounds like they disagreed back then from the discussion between Sethvir and Davien and that caused big problems. They could have been involved in creating the weapon, and perhaps manipulating humans since they are so against that now.