Archive through December 01, 2005

Janny Wurts Chat Area: Arc 3: Alliance of Light: Fugitive Prince, Grand Conspiracy; Peril's Gate & Traitor's Knot: Traitors Knot Discussions: Spoiler Topics: Just a wild thought and SPOILER for TK:: Archive through December 01, 2005
   By Cheryl Detmer on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 03:11 pm: Edit Post

I just had this idea that what if Lysaer and Arithon had teamed up again to fight the necromancers? Another time and another place. I thought when the Paravian word GRACE came and that protected Arithon and caused the necromancers to be destroyed, I thought it would have destroyed the curse too. I briefly thought it would heal them from the Mistwraith but it just made it stronger. Lysaer will be worse than ever now. ugh so frustrating.

   By Andy on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 04:41 pm: Edit Post

Cheryl, excuse me for being a little dense, but I'm not sure I follow. What does the "it" in "but it just made" refer to? That GRACE would eradicate the curse, but the failure of that to happen made the curse stronger? It's already been a while since I finished TK, but I don't recall comprehending Arithon's trial with the necromancers having an effect on the curse.

   By Cheryl Detmer on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 04:57 pm: Edit Post

I was thinking that as I read that part. It was such a change and freed the people from their captivity and destroyed the necromancers and so much good was happening that I expected the curse to be destroyed as well. I know that was just wishful thinking on my part but it did occur to me that maybe this will destroy the curse too. By it I think I mean the paravian protection that Arithon had but just wasn't sure how to refer to it sorry did it again. lol

   By Maurice Peter Vialle on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 06:51 pm: Edit Post

Lysaer had no (current) connection to the Kralovir.
He (and his curse) therefore remained unchanged by these events

   By Hunter on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 06:56 pm: Edit Post


I think the difference is that the necromancers are active possession / enslavement of their victims. Arithon's invoking of the Paravian Grace re-established his right to autonomous existence free of LotMB transgressing necromancers.. and perhaps not different to Enithen Tuer's freeing from the Koriani by the Fellowship.

What the Curse did to Arithon and Lysaer wasn't active possession but a change of their character through the Fellowship geas. Which is why the Fellowship couldn't reverse the damage to Lysaer in Etarra in "Curse.." as it would have been removing a fundamental piece of Lysaer.

   By neil on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 04:36 am: Edit Post

Enithen Tuer v. Arithon.

"No man on Athera is born to be slave" or something lke that. (Asandir in GC?)

I think Enithen Tuer had Fellowship help (they refer to her as an "old friend") to free her from her Koriani vows.

She was freed from a vow she had taken "in free will" which still had a voluntary get-out clause re: "compact".

I wonder how she stumbled on the knowledge?!? Quiet important info. I should think :-)

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Arithon did something at the end of TK than that maybe only a F7 / F7 apprentice could do.

He took no vow to enslave himself. He freely gave himself into Kralovir hands but was enslaved rapidly without the intial personal strength to respond. (maybe the same thing ultimately?)

Then he did something rather wonderful. He was disguised by Davien, had necromancy training from Traithe but I feel he acted on his own merits without calling on the Fellowship.


If it is not a future spoiler: *** I'm asking ***

Was Davien surprised by Ariton's method also or did he foresee such an approach? Was he "banking" on it? (You metionned once that Swethvir, etc. were "surprised").

   By Hunter on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 07:20 am: Edit Post

One point about the Koriani version of free will, which is also very pertinent to Fionn Areth, is to ask at what age someone is able to make a "free will" decision that they won't live to regret? In particular, the Koriani get their initiates very young, as indeed Fionn Areth was perhaps 5 or 6 years old. How can a young child of that age make a life long decision? How can the Koriani in good faith bind their initiates in such a way? It's clear the Koriani have changed over the years.

For Enithen Tuer (and the fire scarred lady in Jaelot) I don't think the Koriani will has such a get out clause, I think it's the Fellowship asserting the right of the Compact over the Koriani binding thereby restoring the autonomy of the specific individual and removing the Koriani binding - which is effectively slavery.

   By neil on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 08:38 am: Edit Post

Oops hunter ( don't you work in law?) I meant to mean that any koriani has (without realising it) a "readymade get-out clause" available to insert into their koriani oath thanks to the compact...

Elaira expresses her frustration with the oath (to Kharadmon in Ships?) but still doesn't think to *ask*...was it pride / and independent streak stop her from *asking*? I forget... Elaira can't be the only frustrated koriani?

The koriani management are playing a "numbers game" in order to get talent to maintain the higher ranks. They can't wait until any talent has matured enough to have sufficent awareness of possibilities of "escape". Habits of a lifetime are hard to break...hence get 'em young. I wonder whether some fellowship (or likely clan?) resource has been used in the past to thwart the koriani recruitment.

BTW Why the oath of celebacy? (ok they are breeding some talent, or so SE says?)

I'd forgotten the blind lady from GC. Again a lucky escape for her (I think her escape from koriani was detailed are in GC book but I forget...)

   By Cheryl Detmer on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 09:38 am: Edit Post

I've always thought that too Hunter that the Koriani start them out too young and force it on them. It's like slavery to me what they do but like neil says, get them while their young lol. I think Davien did have this plan with Arithon and knew what he was going to do. He knocked Dakar because he knew he'd go in and interrupt what Arithon was attempting. Poor Arithon has to make those decisions on everyone's lives. It's not good either way but he has to prevent the worst ending and prevent the most amount of lives being lost. The lesser of two evils. Don't envy him.

   By Hunter on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 09:15 pm: Edit Post

Neil.. I'm not in law..

However, you have raised a rather interesting point. Before the rebellion, the Compact must have been well known and the autonomy of Ath's Law honoured. I think there was mention that in past times, families sent their daughters to Koriani initiation as an honourable calling - the Korithain received the cream of the crop, whereas now they get beggars, thieves, street kids, anyone they can find to ensure they have sufficient new recruits. I suspect in the older times the initiates were much older and were able to make such a decision and swear the Koriani Oath fully cognizant of everything it entailed.

Given that the Paravians, Fellowship and kingdom law is now mostly a forgotten myth in most parts of Athera, makes sense that no one under the age of 100 would really know about Ath's Law and hence know to ask. Certainly I wouldn't have thought Elaira's childhood on the street of Morvain would have included a detailed study of Paravian language and Law - she is limited by her own perceived limitations.

Oath of celibacy? Outside of Fellowship Sorceror's and spell binders, where would the Koriani find 400 year old men? Or is the Koriani an order dedicated to toy boys? Demi Moore for Lirenda anyone?

Actually probably several very good reasons for celibacy. Firstly, having children and raising a family is rather limitting on their time to devote to being a Koriani enchantress. Then, given they live five to seven centuries and their husbands & children live normal lives, an enchantress would watch their family grow old and die as they did not. Not something normally recommended for peace of mind I would have thought. As Theoden says in the film of The Two Towers (apparently an adlibbed line) "No parent should have to bury their child".