Archive through August 30, 2005

Janny Wurts Chat Area: Arc 3: Alliance of Light: Fugitive Prince, Grand Conspiracy; Peril's Gate & Traitor's Knot: Traitors Knot Discussions: Spoiler Topics: All about Sulfin Evend: Archive through August 30, 2005
   By Blue on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 02:42 am: Edit Post

Spoilers just in case!

I wonder what his reaction to Raiett's death will be, and which loyalty he will be sacrificed? How close of tabs is the Fellowship keeping on him?

Two very good questions, Nora. I wonder if SE would go so far as to contact the clansmen on his own recognizance, and warn them of the firestorm to come - in SF? I also wonder if he will ever encounter Arithon, and what the two of them will make of one another.

   By Nora on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 08:01 am: Edit Post

Potential spoilers!

As SE's oath is to the land of Tysan and the weal of its people, he may well end up doing something drastic to try to save the soldiers in his command (and thus his responsibility) from a bloody battle that he knows is about nuthin' good. SE has seen the curse effects up close and personal, and has developed enough of a backbone to argue against Lysaer's kind of strategic war. Well, one can hope, after all.

And Arithon is at Sanpashir and SE is heading that way; I'm very excited to see what will happen with SE returning the knife, as he's hardly a popular figure amongst any kind of clansmen...

   By Andy on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 11:50 am: Edit Post

Potential SPOILERS.

I just re-read Sulfin's visit to Althain and his conversation with Asandir. It is clear that Sulfin will take a caithdein's oath and that oath is to the land, and enforceable by the his true self as well as the Fellowship. Asandir also makes it clear that his caithdein's oath will not supplant Maenol as caithdein of Tysan. But what is also clear from their conversation is that Sulfin's caithdein oath will irrevocably tie him to Lysaer, and Asandir attempts to dissuade him from this, as Lysaer has been cast out of the protection of the Compact, is under the curse of the Mistwraith, and has attracted the perilous interest of necromancers. So while Lysaer is obviously not a sanctioned prince or king, Sulfin willl apparently play the part of Lysaer's caithdein--at least for Lysaer's benefit. Asandir even makes the point in a way that Sulfin will be able to perhaps protect Lysaer from the necromancers where the Fellowship could not due to their sparse resources or his forfeited right to ask for intercession. Maybe he just swore a caithdein's oath to the land but has not become a caithdein.

Aside: In explaining Sulfin's heritage, Asandir explains that his ancestor's split into three lines: (1) Maenol's; (2) his own Westwood/Hanshire; and (3) some Erdani prince who was inopportune or misbehaved. To whom does the third line pertain?

Janny -- I'm asking -- can a kingdom have more than one caithdein at the same time? Can a uncrowned and nonsanctioned prince have a caithdein? I suspect we're bordering on RAFO-land, but any light you can shed would be appreciated.


   By Ryan Gohl on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 11:52 am: Edit Post

Very well put Andy. I couldn't have stated it better.

   By Hellcat on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 12:34 pm: Edit Post

I think the 3rd branch that forfitted its heratige was the gentleman (whose name I've forgotten) who captured Arithon in CoTM and dangled him over a chasm head down. Though IIRC his crime was not what he did to Arithon but the fact that he intended to carry out a raid for the sake of it rather than for reasons of survival.

Will have to re-read.

   By Nora on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 02:35 pm: Edit Post

Potential spoilers...

I was taking another look at the scene with Sulfin and Lysaer in the bathtub, and I noted how often it was emphasized that anyone else would shut up, but a man bound to the cause of the land kept pressing things. Sulfin Evend's experience at Avenor, coming into contact with Sethvir and helping to purge the necromancers--I think that was a really big thing for his character. [Also note the divergent paths of Lysaer and SE in Althain Tower--Lysaer is not moved by the Paravian statuary, but SE weeps and looses his composure. SE is able to be sensitive in ways that Lysaer has cut himself off from.]

A caithdein wears black, we know--because, I think, a caithdein is bound in responsibility to the land (and thus the F7 and the Paravians) more deeply than to the royal office or occupant itself. A king's oath is to the kingdom, but the caithdein also has a direct connection of sorts, I think. When SE is in Hanshire, he says that his oath is to the land and the weal of the people, and that Lysaer's cause is the same. But it's obvious that he *knows* those two things are diverging, and he moves into being a direct goad to Lysaer's ambitions.

It was fascinating to see how the F7 could act through a caithdein, with the oath and due permission, to enact powerful intervention.

Can we find out what exactly the oath a caithdein swears is, or is that confidential? :-)

   By Janny Wurts on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 03:01 pm: Edit Post

Andy -- You Asked.


There cannot be two caithdein, precisely. Sulfin Evend's state of affaris is a shattering precident.

Maenol is sanctioned caithdein for Tysan - that means, by Tysan's old charter law, he may speak for crown justice in the absence of the king or sanctioned crown prince. ONLY MAENOL can stand in for this responsibility.

Sulfin Evend swore the caithdein's oath - which is to the weal of the land - and holds the people subject to the land's prosperity. He swore this oath, which enables him the standing to ask for Fellowship intercession - he can ask for help as a caithdein might, if the land and the people who are in harmony with the terms of the compact are jeopardized. And legit, the Fellowship can answer.

This allows the Sorcerers, also, the opening to temper what happens to Lysaer - without that opening, the horrid little brush with necromancy would have had little opening at all - if not none, for Lysaer's survival.... a Fellowship intercession could NOT have salvaged his life, while he was caught "under the influence."

The Fellowship agrees to stand on Sulfin Evend's oath in order to temper the impact of Lysaer, under the curse. It does NOT give Sulfin Evend any power to claim authority under Tysan's crown charter, and it certainly does NOT elevate Lysaer's status to crown heir in any shape or form. He would not, either, wear black, which signifies "shadow behind the throne" or perform the office of royal conscience for even a potential s'Ilessid heir.

Maenol's lineage is the legit Caithdein for the realm. No way Sulfin Evend would supplant him.

   By Nora on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 04:00 pm: Edit Post

Possible TK spoilers!

Ooh, new information--that clears things up, wow and thanks. It makes sense that there never would have been a situation like this before, with such a powerful rogue agent wreaking havoc as a ruler. I'm guessing that the oath and related issues will come into play next book, and it's probably things that would be spoily.

This is the first inroad the Fellowship has had with someone near to Lysaer in some time, isn't it?

   By Andy on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 04:05 pm: Edit Post


I think the 3rd branch that forfitted its heratige was the gentleman (whose name I've forgotten) who captured Arithon in CoTM and dangled him over a chasm head down. Though IIRC his crime was not what he did to Arithon but the fact that he intended to carry out a raid for the sake of it rather than for reasons of survival.

Ah yes, I remember now. I don't recall his name either, but wasn't his uncle Lord Tashan or something like that. Basically, he planned to raid the next non-clan travellers who came through out of malice, Arithon "used" him to force Asandir to reveal Lysaer's s'Illesid ancestory, and then Asandir chastised Arithon afterwards, explaining that the unintended consequence of Arithon's rash action was that the would-be raider would suffer punishment at Maenolle's hand which would potentially end a irreplacable clan lineage/descent. Does this mean he was killed as punishment? If not, I wonder if we'll ever see that guy again.

   By Blue on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 03:55 pm: Edit Post

The name of the third s'Gannley branch heir was Grithen, who was the Earl of Erdane. Lord Tashan had rebuked him BEFORE the raid that captured Arithon, chewing him out for being rash. It was after the raid that Lady Maenalle, Maenol's predecessor [and namesake?] formally disinherited him from his position. He had violated clan tradition [and charter law?] in his actions, and the offense was sufficiently bad enough for him to lose everything.

If Grithen had children, would they inherit the Erdane title, or is that branch line of s'Gannley out of luck?