Archive through August 30, 2006

Janny Wurts Chat Area: Arc 3: Alliance of Light: Fugitive Prince, Grand Conspiracy; Peril's Gate & Traitor's Knot: Traitors Knot Discussions: Spoiler Topics: Not entirely convinced: Archive through August 30, 2006
   By Wendy Collett on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 05:29 pm: Edit Post

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At this stage, I am thinking that we have to consider the fact that originally both Traitor's Knot and Stormed Fortress were originally going to be the one humungeous book, and that the plot line that developes with the nemocracers is only just beginning.

While in and of itself, Arithon was able to deal with THIS particular bunch of them, this will not be the end of the matter by all means.

Consider the fact that Arithon did NOT want to learn from the black books in Davien's Library, and that eventually Traithe finally convinced him that he needed to learn the information in order to fight them. At the time Arithon said something along the lines of 'but what is this dangerous information, but another tool for the Mistwraith's curse?' - very paraphrased, sorry Janny.

What about the situation where Lysaer now has no protection at all against being taken over and possessed by nemocracers, and is doubly suseptable now that it has happened once before. Oh, yeah, you can't see this happening again in the 450-odd years left to go? Poor Sulfin won't be around THAT long to help protect him.


In one of the earlier books where Lysaer gets judged at Althain Tower, and then has his protection removed on him, from the Compact, Ath's Adept gives fair warning that Arithon will become as 'dark' as Lysaer tries to think he is, but not before Lysaer is totally.... (sorry can't think of the exact words here).

Also I believe that while I haven't yet sorted out the full ramifications of it, that the fact that Arithon WAS taken as a captured spirit, and still, somehow (I'm still trying to understand how, exactly), he managed to, at the last minute, exude a force of power of 'GRACE' that affected all nemocracers in that ring, flock, flight, whatever a group of nemocracers are called.

Here's a wild-guess situation - Arithon forms a full alliance of all the nemocracer groups to control the Mistwraith spirits, but at the end of it redeems the lot of them through 'GRACE'.


Consider the fact that there is another arc to go at least. You want to have a different plot happening, you have to start introducing plot elements earlier so that it leads straight in, while finishing off the older one.


   By Hosanna on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 10:24 pm: Edit Post

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I see the significance of the necromancer sub-plot as being obvious already without needing to necessarily develop further, although I have no doubt it will.
To me one of Janny's many themes is to contrast dogmatic religion with real, transforming experience of the divine or numinous represented by Parvians. Lysaer's religion of light was a relatively simple religion - hero-worshipping a saviour to combat a perceived threat by shadows. However the reality of dogmatic religions called for a much deeper portrayal which Janny has given us showing how ambitious and evil people will flock to any source that offers them an opportunity to exert power in society as well as their tendency to exploit the most vulnerable people. Such people often get involved in religions because the followers are looking for guidance and can be easily led. Lysaer himself while seeming to have power and command was in fact a vulnerable person due to the curse and his passionate hatred of Arithon. The necromancer storyline demonstrates the inevitable damage done by dogmatic belief systems. It also highlights the possibility that Lysaer may somehow be redeemed before the end of the series as he is not himself the ultimate evil. The more I think about it I look at the wraiths in Deshthiere and how they were once human I see that the definition of GRACE is that it comes even to the undeserving. It is not earnt but is a gift unconditional. look at how asandir treated Morriel. again with davien we are being led to question his role as "betrayer" we have already been shown that the F7 were fallible and made huge mistakes in the past ... I think Lysaer, while he may be held accountable on one level is not to be viewed as a purely bad guy. We are being shown through the two lead characters a chance to compare the merits of a Justice approach to a Compassion approach and I think we see clearly which is favoured by the author. The Old Testament view of an eye for an eye can be seen as a justice approach while the New Testament is all about forgiveness of sins. Jesus befriended the criminals, prostitutes and so on.
The Fellowship have a moral and ethical rule book in the form of their Compact, Law of Major Balance, goal to restore the paravians etc. But they still have difficult choices to make and found disagreement between members with Davien acting as his free will and conscience dictated.
The value of the necromancer subplot I think is already well and truly established.

(Message edited by admin on March 23, 2005)


   By Neil on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 04:26 am: Edit Post

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Necromancers:

So are the necromancers a continuing thread or will they remain in the background from now on? Are the surviving cults suffiently aware of recent happenings? Do they have a repsonse?

Arithon has not been corrupted (yet?). Arithon still considers this a risk. The F7 seem to have confidence in him though.

Historically, the necromancers seems to be sufficiently in the know to be able to avoid F7 intervention most days so it's curious how this latest strategy fell apart. Why draw attention to yourself? They must be aware of the F7's abilities or did they hope that they were too busy elsewhere?

For 5000 years, N. (and some townborn) appear to be planning the downfall of the F7 and are aware of the risks? But no-one seems aware of the drake-binding which pretty much overpowers anything on Athera...if the human population were aware, would they act differently? Is there ever a possibility that humans could hamstring the F7 (playing a very risky game but the prize is survival free of F7/paravian constraints + space civilisation)? Can Arithon demonstrate an alternative?

N. are just a very interesting phenomena to have kicking about...is this something the clan could/should have policed in the past or might want to curtail in the future? Free-will is one thing but a nasty necromancer neighbour invites some kind of response other than just "ok, well...he acting in free will so it's ok...". Especially if it's your children going under the knife...speaking of knifes, the desert people have protective measures so do they occasionally have to deal with necromancy?

Maybe I've giving the necromancers too much importance and we won't see them again...the worst (grey kralovir) have been dealt with. I'm curious though what potential for mischief exists if their remains are not burnt in white fire. Does the F7 systematically uproot bigger necromancy happening when they have the time as part of the compact (simply because it upsets the lanes?). A small group could continuously get away with murder? Is the plan that one day the necromancers will just fade away due to athera / paravian influence long-term. Increased frequency encouraging long-term change...how many 1000s of years are necessary!? All the time risking humanity's destructon as the present living seek to escape perceived restrictions.

Drakespawn:

If the drake spawn were "redeemable", wouldn't the paravians have achieved this during 5000 years in the third age? The drake spawn

seemed to be imprisoned indefinitely(?). The grimwards also seem to be a final solution (not an ideal one). I wonder why khadrim, for example, are still alive...were the other drake spawn allowed this chance to live but chose extinction rather than imprisonment? Is it important to understand, I wonder?

I'll stop rambing, time to work...

(Message edited by admin on March 23, 2005)


   By Blue on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 05:28 pm: Edit Post

Spoilers ahead! You were warned!

seemed to be imprisoned indefinitely(?). The grimwards also seem to be a final solution (not an ideal one). I wonder why khadrim, for example, are still alive...were the other drake spawn allowed this chance to live but chose extinction rather than imprisonment? Is it important to understand, I wonder?

It is mentioned somewhere - at the moment, my books are playing hide and seek with me - that Ciladis intervened on behalf of the drakespawn, believing that they could somehow be redeemed.

The grimwards are to keep the dreams of the dead drakes in check, to keep them from just dreaming everything out of existence. The only creatures that can actually handle the dead drakes' dreams without being annihilated are live drakes, and only because, as live drakes, they are more powerful than the dead.

Which begs the question, how it is that the Paravians cannot survive the chaos/entropy of the dreams of the dead drakes? Wouldn't they try to help the dead drakes cross the veil fully, and find the final peace of Ath's eternity? Or is it again a matter of free will that the dead can do whatever they want?


   By Trys on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 05:14 am: Edit Post

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Perhaps the connection between the Paravian and Ath has a great potential to be sundered should a Paravian attempt to deal with a dead drake. Or maybe it's simpler than that. When the Hanshiremen interacted with the contents of the grimward they became part of it and subject to its 'rules'. Would this not also be the case for a Paravian? Might they not be in that 'other' reality.

Trys


   By Ellydee on Saturday, July 09, 2005 - 09:02 pm: Edit Post

Minor spoilers, nothing much . . .

This novel, to me, had a very strange feel about it. There were so many plot lines that would have radically shifted the flow of the story (Elaira's child, Arithon's plan to unite the towns, the necromancy subplot that ended far sooner than I was expecting in the series). It almost seemed like the story, the characters themselves were surging forward, trying to make monumental changes in their fictional world, yet some force was fighting tooth and nail to block any and all efforts to make that happen. In some ways, that paralleled Arithon's struggles, so I had my doubts whether or not this atmosphere was intentional.

The character that I enjoyed the most by far was Sulfin Evend. While all the other characters seemed to come full circle, this one was making leaps and bounds forward, questing for the truth of the matter. I am highly anticipating Stormed Fortress to learn what happens to Mr. Evend, and I thank Janny for creating such an intriguing, multi-faceted character. His journey was both riveting and refreshing. He's the kind of character I'd love to be able to weave into my own stories.

And hmmmm . . . Is Jeynsa friend or foe? Will be watching that with great interest as well . . . :-)

I enjoyed seeing the s'Brydion brothers again, and the aged, still powerful Dame Dawr reminds me so much of my grandmother that I chuckle whenever she's mentioned. I was however, irritated by the S'Brydion contribution to damming-up sensation I felt when reading the work (Come on, why wouldn't one want to tear apart his own castle? We did that two years ago for renovations and had a blast!) :P

The consummation scene took me by surprise, and I must say I was embarrassed and ashamed of eavesdropping on such a personal act I had to go wash my hands. It felt too much like a guilty pleasure, after I enjoyed the POV play so much.

Overall, I enjoyed the novel, but I am desperately awaiting Stormed Fortress - I can feel the radical shifts looming in Traitor's Knot coming into full effect.

I must say that Arithon is certainly more delicious to me now than ever before - I enjoy it when a character allows their dark side a little room to grow, perhaps it's just my penchant for favoring the Wicked witch of the West over Dorothy. (BTW, anyone read "Wicked?" Fascinating.) I enjoyed a little splash of wicked humor in this new, less guilt-addled Arithon.

On Grimwards: One thing I enjoy about this series is the many levels of reality and their interactions: Athlieria (sp?), the grimwards, Ath's hostels, the reality of the Maze, etc. Perhaps it's unhealthy for these realities to collide. In my meager understanding of it, a being's awareness of their existence is very intertwined with the reality they perceive. Maybe it that reality changed, people would just be kind of swept away? How do you deal with it when your entire reality, that you depend on to understand yourself, goes beserk? (Unless you're a Masterbard, that is.)

My collection of random thoughts after reading TK. My two cents is officially plunked in. :-)


   By Jo on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 06:06 am: Edit Post

NOT REALLY A SPOILER BUT JUST MY THOUGHTS
Maybe i am naive in reading these books, just re-reading the curse of the Mistwraithe, have the paravians really vanished or has spellcraft just hidden them, as it states that a unicorn saw the light return and held one f7 member asleep, so the mage had obviously found what he was looking for and the paravians did not want him talking.

I think it will be a great shame if in the end Arithon dies, that seems pretty pointless. My thought is that maybe Lysars heir takes over from Lysar and that Arithon chooses a Caithdain to look after his realm, lives out the rest of his life with Elaria and making music after sorting everything out, not sure how on that bit though.

I think Jensa could cause a lot of problems for Arithon but maybe Jiret comes to her in a dream
and sorts her out as well. Hey just guessing.

Anyway my Husband thinks I mad for looking too deeply into a book (series) that I just love. Will I love it if the worse materialises though

Just a thought how can they fight for 5000 years as it appears at the prolog of curse of the mis. as isn't that all they life they have left. I know probably naive in that thinking and where did everything go the paravians, f7 arithon and lysar if they are reading old scripts that hadn't quite all survived and they think that lysars religion was false, did his religion prevail after all. I hope not


   By Trys on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 07:19 am: Edit Post

Jo,

We don't know where the PAravians are and we aren't 100% sure that the sleeping sorcerer is a member of the F7 though that is the prevailing opinion.

Maybe it's your husband who is nuts. Has he read the books?

As to still loving it though the worse materializes... that's a tough one. There are movies I've seen where I was devastated by the ending but I still love the movie. An example of this is City of Angels (Nicholas Cage/Meg Ryan). I couldn't believe how they ended that.

Trys


   By Joanne on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 04:57 pm: Edit Post

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Is it possible that Jeynsa could turn the clans against Arithon?

Strange I think that Lysaer spreads lies but had thousands of followers Arithon tells the truth and has a few friends and not all people trust him

Why is she going to Melhalla I know to seek council but now she has seen Arithon being sacrificed what can she achieve there accept for his destruction. join the queue for that one.

When the ath adepts said about Arithon going to the dark side or something like that surely the F7 would not have sanctioned him. Or is this one of the test he has to pass.

Lastly in TK with regards to Elaria and Arithon making love- the signal attached to Elaria or whatever it was am I to understand that means that Airthon and Elaria can never make love again. Still don't see how he will survive or the clans.

Lastly I think Arithon could do with a break!


   By Yvonne Sell on Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 12:29 am: Edit Post

Hi guys


SPOILERS FOLLOW


This is my first posting anywhere, but I have been reading all the posts on the site for a couple of months and couldn't stay out of the discussion. These books have been my favourite reading matter for years and I am currently enjoying them another time. What I wanted to point out is that the Great Waystone will probably only be controlled in the future by a Koriani with the help of Arithon (because of his power over the Iyat.) I think Moriel/Selidie will try to use the Stone and either be killed or trapped. Thereafter, Elaira will attempt it, with Arithon's help. Would this mean that BOTH Elaira and Arithon would lead the Koriathain? Could change the whole organisation, having a male co-leader! And think how great it would be having all that power on the side of the F7!
Does anyone think this is a posibility, or am I way out of my league?