Rampant speculations...

Janny Wurts Chat Area: Arc 4: Sword of the Canon: Initiate's Trial: Rampant speculations...

   By Jack Evans on Monday, February 09, 2009 - 08:36 pm: Edit Post

**Spoilers** (In all the books just to cover my bases)

It seems that the direct mechanism of the rune the Bieder activated was never told, but since it both seemed to gaurentee a conception and was used as a free consent spirit transfer, maybe the child that Glendien carries is of her body true... but has the spirit of Elaira? or is just carried by her but is really a child of Elaira and Arithons?

It seems this could be what had happened with the legacy of shand when the prophetic talent was wedded into the royal line? Maybe far out there on not much of a basis but the fact that it was glendien's child was always stated by who i consider limited observers.

The fact that the Sanpashir spell broke the rune of conception on Elaira also draws interest, why should they care? Would they waste power doing it for spite just because they dislike Koraithan? (And i doubt since they know of Mother Dark's Chosen's love for Elaira they would bear spite towards her, besides, she does follow the Law of Major Balance)

Ok, now time for you loremasters to tear my theory to shreds :P.

   By Annette on Saturday, April 16, 2011 - 03:54 am: Edit Post


By Neil on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 - 10:54 am: Edit Post

Anyone care to speculate on the Biedar obligation that Arithon does not "endorse"?

Presumably the Biedar feel Arithon has a "bizarre obligation" to them but they need his free will permission?

What on Athera could this be?

Obligation? Biedar are not like the Koriathain, they are not going to entrap people with oaths of obligation. Arithon would have seen it as their false obligation to him. They are the keepers of the prophecy, Arithon did not like the direction of it. The Biedar believe Arithon is God touched (it was mentioned in Grand Conspiracy) he will not have a bar of it. Having Lysaer set such a fine example of someone falsely claiming divine connections probably did not help.

Possible spoilers.

Since this is the thread for wild speculation, I do believe Arithon is going to have to admit in the end the Biedar were right. Lysaer's fanatics got it wrong, it is not Lysaer who is Ath's avatar, it is Arithon! If you highlight blank bit between the text you will see my extremely rampant speculation concerning Arithon. But we will have to wait for the final book in the series to find out if it is true or not.

As to the Beidar rune/cipher, it has never been connected with conception. It allowed Elaira's spirit to inhabit Glendien's body, with consent. Originally it was part of a sacred rite, used to commune with the ancestry. Elaira's use of it allowed the Biedar ancients the access needed to shield her from the star song, which is how both Elaira and Arithon were freed from entrancement. The grand confluence was what ensured a conception. The Koriathain believed the Biedar weaving is what unravelled Selidie's inset sigil of conception. Perhaps they took exception to Koriathain meddling, perhaps it was to protect Arithon, repay Elaira for her care of Arithon,or maybe it was just that the power unleashed during the grand confluence undid it.


No Matriarch's reach could command the unleashing power that fired the flux. Her most potent sigils would become ripped asunder, undone by torrential harmony.

Or Elaira was also enthralled by the star song, and that had been enough to free Parrien from the berserker's geas. Maybe it unravelled the sigil.

And here is another wild and rampant speculation to add to the thread. Was Ath's avenging angel Dharkaron a legend in his own time? How do legends get started in the first place? Knowledge of Ath, Daelion and probably the legend of Dharkaron seem to have originated with the Paravians. If Athlieria is a seperate dimension that exists outside of time could not a legend from the future have been transferred to an earlier time when the Paravians came to Athera. If you re-read all the books with intent to unravel Dharkaron's origins Janny has already seemingly left a trail of hints for the imaginative. I might not be much of a conversationalist, but yes I do have a good imagination, obviously it runs rampant when ever I read Janny's WoLaS series. Yes I think the legend is based on Arithon's early life on Athera. Who else milled more misguided fools under the wheel. If you highlight the blank space and then re-read the books keeping that thought in mind if nothing else at least you will get a good laugh out of the way some of the lines get reinterpreted.

Edit - Pity the grey writing is still visible. :-(

   By Annette on Monday, April 25, 2011 - 06:10 am: Edit Post

I wonder if Janny has a solar eclipse planned for sometime in the next 2 books? If so Janny I would love to know the exact date!

   By Janny Wurts on Monday, April 25, 2011 - 09:22 am: Edit Post

As a curiosity, why?

   By Annette on Monday, April 25, 2011 - 04:53 pm: Edit Post

Oh, just rampant speculation about a certain event and wondering how Arithon wiggles out of it. Was looking into some of the symbolism used in the books and got a bit suspicious about the sun. Is there one coming up? Perhaps a certain Reiyaj seeress would know?

   By Annette on Tuesday, April 26, 2011 - 09:31 am: Edit Post


Why not let the darkness unveil its own light, and resurrect its next hope of salvation?

That did actually snag my attention at the time, but I never noticed the relevant references to the Sun spread all over the place back then, I was thinking a different kind of darkness. Never mind, I was just wanting to get a hint about the amount of time to pass till then. Assuming there was actually that kind of event already planned. Not going to hurt to sit here in the dark and let my imagination run rampant. :-)

No I was not actually initially going to explain why, since it would be a spoiler if true, but since you asked. And yes I went and had a look through some of the myths, legends and prophecies concerning similar events but thought asking about an eclipse would be simpler and give less away about why I was curious.

   By Jeff on Thursday, June 16, 2011 - 08:40 am: Edit Post

In Dakar's vision that shows Arithon kneeling with Alithiel upraised and active and a male Riathan in the rampant;
if the encounter is 'sourced in balance', I wonder if the Riathan is sentinel for Elaira... or if Arithon is making an appeal on her behalf...

   By Annette on Friday, June 17, 2011 - 07:42 pm: Edit Post

Ever since I got my hardback version of Traitor's Knot and got a better look at Alithiel a suspicion has been in my mind, having looked at the other pictures we have of the sword I have just made up my mind. If you turn the sword upside down, the pommel is I believe a rose, the emerald is the calyx. Apart from Janny always putting a red rose with Alithiel as an obvious hint, the larger version of Alithiel also shows the red of the rose shining off the pommel. I do not recall anyone actually saying anything about this so thought I would mention it, in case anyone wants to speculate on it.

   By Annette on Saturday, July 09, 2011 - 07:39 am: Edit Post


We start with Arithon imprisoned, and shortly after Selidie/Morriel's little plot falls apart, when he is released. We find out how Arithon was entrapped later on, after more trials and tribulations and no doubt further Koriani mischief did we end up finishing with Morriel reaping the consequences of her actions. Did the old crone finally meet her long overdue end, perhaps that promise to Elaira caused her downfall. Done in by her own Waystone

Probably I am completely wrong, but this is the place for rampant speculation.

   By Annette on Tuesday, September 13, 2011 - 04:08 am: Edit Post

Here is another wild possibility. Arithon has mastered shadow how long before he gets a chance to play with elemental light? So many things in the books seem to be hinted at being kept or held in stewardship for Arithon, maybe control of elemental light is the same, Lysaer was just the temp who got to show it's destructive side. Someone else gets to be more creative with it.

So many of Arithon's talents and strengths seem to be paired for balance, what would balance shadow better.

   By Trys on Tuesday, September 13, 2011 - 09:04 am: Edit Post

Given that the powers of elemental magic were bestowed by Rauven at birth to each of the brothers (one as a 'dowery' I think and the other in reaction to the King of Amroth's "attitude") I would think the only way for Arithon to acquire the power of Light would be to go see his grandfather. Something I don't think is possible as the West Gate is likely still sealed... and there's still the Curse of Mearth on the other side of it.

   By Annette on Tuesday, September 13, 2011 - 03:50 pm: Edit Post

I do not think Arithon will get it by returning to Rauven, either he will claim it like everything else he acquires, or when Lysaer dies it will somehow become his. I suspect the same would have happened if Talera had given birth to more than 2 children, any elemental powers gifted as part of her dowry would have ended up with Arithon eventually.

   By Neil on Wednesday, September 14, 2011 - 04:11 pm: Edit Post

Arithon is known through history or at least "at that time" during the 500 years (see CoM prologue) as master of shadow. Likely that this is his only elemental skill.

   By Annette on Thursday, September 15, 2011 - 05:19 am: Edit Post

Arithon was known in the third age as Master of Shadow, far more to history than the third age. It would be near the end of Destiny's Conflict it would most likely occur, the end of the third age.

   By Neil on Friday, August 15, 2014 - 08:42 am: Edit Post


Some themes I have no clue about:

Reyaj: "to touch the forbidden" (things even the F7 avoid? More than just watching koriani (who have a lot of their admin meetings sheltered from light?) necromancy hunting? why is this person needed? Biedar seem the drivers steering here but not acting without permission...hmm hmm

Drakes: are at war. The north gate was guarded from other side to stop(?)(occational?) entry to Athera? And they have very long-term viewpoint. And F7 don't want Arithon/Alestron to be noticed by drakes during Stormed Fortress?

High kingdoms: are there low kingdoms?

Arithon's legacy: will the next masterbard be able to learn what Arithon has learned. Suppose "shadows" power is not needed but a combination of initiate/music/far-sight could go help humanity not need F7? F7 seem there to police humanity at need today

Breaking the compact: maybe me not understanding but occasion references to "breaking the compact"...I still do not understand what constitutes this and exactly what the cause would be where/if magnetics/mysteries are sufficiently disturbed - Koriani seem to think they can force a "break". How exactly? Can they do this independently with waystone? No suppose not otherwise they would have already done so? Killing Arithon would not break the compact instantly but I suppose would lead to a medium/long-term failure if F7 are not reunitied...which implies Arithin somehow recovers Ciladis via mistwraith resolution

"Things in the darkness" on something: somewhere on Athera are things we still have not seen.

East gate...

Drakespawn: living ones presumably have potential to be redeemed...or are they not destryed yet due to lack of resources

The other 2 necromancer cults

Arithon's remaining purpose is to solve the mistwraith issue, no? Why would he ever accept kingship but if he does not the lawless alternative seems to point to humanity removal? He could seach again for paravians...light/shadow coudl be given again by rauven mages to keep mistwraith imprisoned?

Would the Paravians coming back too soon ruin their purpose in being off continent?

Does the mistwraith have an agenda? Can an insane entity seeks it own redemption? Or would it just seek to kill planets to live on?

I cannot help but feel the background has loads more going on than a sane reader can keep track of ;-)

   By Annette on Friday, August 15, 2014 - 06:42 pm: Edit Post

I think you will find Aritbon is the last or end of a lot of things, Athera is not likely to get another Masterbard, just like there will be no further sanctioned Princes for Rathain. I think the power that went with the title of Athera's Masterbard was meant for Arithon. That lyranthe will not be passed on to anyone else, even if Arithon eventually gets the peace he needs to train others. And if she breaks, Arithon will make a replacement himself. He will need to become a master lyranthe maker at some point.

If there is a low kingdom, maybe Lysaer will be finding it. He led humanity astray, and he did say he wanted to save them from darkness and evil, so who better for the job of saving those lost spirits who died in his service, or died believing he was the light to lead them. Maybe he can pretend to be Arithon while doing it. Arithon is probably going to have to pretend to be Lysaer to get that pack of false priests to do anything useful. No way will they listen to him otherwise. Pretend to be an ascended Lord of the Light each time he needs to guide the priests of the light the right way. I do not see Elaira continuing in Selidie's footsteps in guiding them.

Or Arithon in another form could end up with redeeming all the lost spirits on both sides of the veil.

Either way I think they need all of them found and redeemed, before they get to creation. Those Dragon spirits in the Grimwards might be some of the last ones redeemed, since it seems some had no Name when they died. And Arithon is a fair way from being able to handle any dragon yet, let alone a dead Nameless one.

I should think the Mistwraith has an agenda, it wants its bane out of the way so it can destroy all life. I often wondered if Morriel was somehow connect to the Mistwraith, they seem to think alike. Redeem the Mistwraith and what will we end up with?

I have been wondering why the Khadrim were locked up in that Sorcerer's preserve since it did not seem to be a long term solution to the problem. They can still escape and cause mayhem. I am expecting Arithon to get around to them eventually, as well as the rest of the drake spawn. Cannot free the Fellowship till they are all gone, and Mans future on Athera is settled.

East gate....
A new home for red banded witches not interested in staying on Athera?

Or some of the more advanced human lifeforms keeping an eye on things might go that way to start the fourth age.

Another thing is why the Paravians with all their power and compassion, could not heal the damage to Athera caused by the dragons and their creations. I believe the key to that mystery is why Selidies hands could not be healed. The resident spirit does not match the physical template.

I believe Athera's talent needs to work together, and raise the resonance of Athera as she is healed. Rather than leaching the light and life from Athera as the townborn seem to be doing. The Fellowship could do that but do not seem to be sanctioned to do so. But they have healed other planets, if free, maybe they could return to their home worlds and heal the damage there. Take a few dragons along with them to help.

   By Neil on Sunday, August 17, 2014 - 09:18 am: Edit Post

"Arithon is the last or end of a lot of things, Athera is not likely to get another Masterbard"
- here I disagree...why should the legacy not continue? But we will need to wait for 2 more books. Arithon is certainly a combination of things that Davien did not imagine possible before the uprising I suppose?

"there will be no further sanctioned Princes for Rathain"
- we are not sure yet... :-) Seems a step back...unless davien is actually wrong about the risks? (his name means mistake one no?)

"That lyranthe will not be passed on to anyone else"
- This is a paravian artifact which may outlast Arithon? I think that there are lots of things "before/after Arithon"...he just happens to be at a nexus as was Dari...? But Arihon's survival seems to imply humanity's survival on Athera which is a big thing for the F7...but paravians/drakes will go on regardless

"He will need to become a master lyranthe maker at some point. "
Arithon is a boat builder and a musician etc etc but would he take an interest in building musical instruments? (here I dare say he might not have time?)

"Dragon spirits/Grimwards/Arithon is a fair way from being able to handle any dragon yet"
- humans are not *ever* going to be able to handle dragons...I would guess?
- I saw in Initiate trial that kings did do battle with spawn and rogue drakes with the jewels but F7 member would usually have been at hand so assume this might have been one drake at a time?
- drakespawn is something to deal with but likely beyond humanity? drakes and paravians and F7 have had enough trouble so far and all things are "leaking at the edges" lacking paravians?

"I should think the Mistwraith has an agenda"
- what does it want? continued crazy life somewhere or redemption/death?

"Another thing is why the Paravians with all their power and compassion, could not heal the damage to Athera caused by the dragons and their creations"
- I think paravians simply have limitations too...they had war all through 1st and 2nd ages? 1000 human years? maybe not so "long" for them? They paid a high price to deal with drakespawn. Populations looks to have tumbled?

"I believe Athera's talent needs to work together"
- well yes...but they all have different belief systems and are contrary to each other ;-)

"maybe they could return to their home worlds and heal the damage there. Take a few dragons along with them to help"
- the drakes could not give a stuff about humans (as yet? if ever?)..it seems...some? all? do not even accept humans as individual being...something like that...I could not find the reference in IT :-(

   By Annette on Sunday, August 17, 2014 - 07:50 pm: Edit Post

Paravians have been on Athera for over 18,000 years and were at their most powerful probably near the end of the second age, start of the third. Over 5,000 years of human habitation, yet they could never heal the damage to Athera? The damage has to be healed for Athera to reach full potential.

Absolutely it does not seem to be within Paravian purview, just as they never redeemed the drake spirits, but built the grimawards to hold them. And yet there was a skeleton of a dragon that was not grimwarded but inhabited? Humanity has yet to reach its full potential, they seem a more likely candidate to heal Paravia. Athera has yet to achieve her highest resonance if she reached new heights when the other continent was healed.

Arithon said in the very first book, he would have no children if they they had to accept the burden of a crown. He had a daughter without his knowledge, and before she was even conceived her destiny was wrested away from Fellowship control.
So Arithon's wishes on the matter were not ignored.

Arithon will never provide a heir for Rathain of his blood. In fact I would think he will drop the s'Ffalenn name altogether before the end of the next book, that lineage ends with him. If he and Elaira have children they will be free to be what ever they want to be, and not be sacrificed to crown duties. So either Arithon is going to accept kingship of Paravia and live as long as Athera exists, and not have children. Or he finds another way out of it. He wants children, he wants to marry Elaira, what did he say concerning Elaira at the start? He would never drag her into it if a crown is involved. He and Davien have another plan.

The Mistraith is already dead the spirits just have not crossed over. Much like the mad spirits imprisoned in crystal, they lost their human identity. So redemption or a new life were probably not their plan. Although there was a strange hint dropped about the Mistraith maybe obeying the Law of the Major Balance. Seemed strange.

Lysaer wanted Arithon dead, and had been willing to leave him to a cruel death or kill him personally before he arrived on Athera and was cursed. The Mistwraith prevented Lysaer from changing that path, but did not force him to do anything he had not been willing to do in the first place. Is it obeying the LotMB?

The Mistwraith had the power to destroy both brothers, yet did not. Why? Maybe there was some secret plan there to force Arithon to grow and claim the power to meet the challenge? Janny will explain it eventually.

The Fellowship killed off the seardluin, banished the methuri and it seems were never going to solve the other problems with the drake spawn, not even when they were at full strength. Arithon needs to fix that before the compact is broken, to ensure the Fellowship will not be forced to destroy humanity, that they will have a choice.

Which will leave at least one irate dragon set on destroying at least the town born part of humanity. Which I believe will probably be Lysaers problem to deal with, he took on the role as their protector and would have executed Arithon by then. I doubt the Fellowship would protect humanity from the dragons. Arithon might not have returned to sooth any irate dragons with a mystical tune. Just what is Lysaer going to do?
Stall and hope for help, absorb some dragon fire, talk the dragon out of it, mesmerize her with his sparkling display. Should be interesting to see what Janny comes up with.

The clans would have hidden some where safe, they would have been warned what was going to happen. Through out the books, places were mentioned that would be safe at least for a while from drake fire. And then there is Alestron, but there would be the challenge of getting in there. Someone would have to open it up and the Fellowship might not help. So Dakar, Elaira or Arithon might take on that challenge and hide some away in there before things get dire. Tarens does not have the training for it. Selidie is not likely to be interested in saving anyone but herself and her precious waystone, and I doubt the Paravians will return before things settle. Probably they will never return to settle, part of this plan probably involves the clans being freed to interact with the townborn bloodlines. Arithon would choose what was best for humanity. The Paravians seemed to have been as much a danger to the clans, as crown duties were to the royal lines. Cannot expect to reach full potential if the best talent is being killed off or incapacitated all the time.

As to dragons paired with Sorcerer's, well we have seen what one pair could do, things change.

   By Neil on Thursday, July 14, 2016 - 09:04 am: Edit Post

Was Enithen Tuer was blind? It is not clear to me from from CoMW. The Reiyaj is blind. Coincidence? Was E.T. also "touching the forbidden"?

I wonder whether drakes would dislike the elemental powers of Arithon and/or Lysaer? Who else in Athera can do this? No-one? Presumably because there will be side effects/impact because the F7 consider outside usual guidelines? Why would the Rauven mages want to develop this ability (pure research? Or do they have a purpose...seems odd for these guys (shand royal line descendants? I forget?) with a certain amount of ability to be doing nothing)

   By Neil on Thursday, July 14, 2016 - 09:07 am: Edit Post

Was Enithen Tuer was blind? It is not clear to me from from CoMW. The Reiyaj is blind. Coincidence? Was E.T. also "touching the forbidden"?

I wonder whether drakes would dislike the elemental powers of Arithon and/or Lysaer? Who else in Athera can do this? No-one? Presumably because there will be side effects/impact because the F7 consider outside usual guidelines? Why would the Rauven mages want to develop this ability (pure research? Or do they have a purpose...seems odd for these guys (shand royal line descendants? I forget?) with a certain amount of ability to be doing nothing)

   By Annette on Friday, July 15, 2016 - 01:59 pm: Edit Post

Well maybe the thinking of the Rauven mages was to do with creation itself? Ath creator had to start some where. Elemental mastery, combined with initiate mastery is a good start.

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