Archive through February 01, 2008

Janny Wurts Chat Area: Arc 4: Sword of the Canon: Initiate's Trial: Elaira: Archive through February 01, 2008
   By Devena Haggis on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 09:58 pm: Edit Post

I'm new to this chat area, although I've been lurking for some time :-)and hoped some of you might be able to shed some light on a couple of questions I've had about Elaira for some time...

1. Why doesn't Elaira ask for Fellowship intervention to be released from her initiate's vow of service like Enithen Tuer did?

2. Does the uncleared crystal's preference to remain in Koriathain service have anything to do with the longevity binding augmented by the Fellowship.

Apologies if they seem basic questions....Any ideas? cheers Dev

   By Laneth Shadow-Walker on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 10:22 pm: Edit Post

I'm really hoping Hunter, Blue, Trys, SandTiger or even Janny come in here to answer this, but I think that if Janny answers these questions, she may give away future storyline...That said:


1. I don't think that Elaira knows, herself, that she can actually ask to be set free, nor does Arithon or anyone in the Clans.
The Biedar won't say it outright, even if they are the sworn enemies of the Koriani Order.

2. I wouldn't know.

I look forward to finding out more from more experienced Paravian Explorers...

   By Blue on Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 06:12 am: Edit Post

Okay, Laneth, you got me... :-O

1. Either Elaira does NOT know about asking the F7 for help in claiming her freedom - she might be "limited" enough in her perceptions to believe there is NO escape.

Somehow Enithen Tuer managed to gain her freedom, but that was either with some knowledge of a since-closed loophole in Koriani law/tradition OR she was cast out of the order before the "make witless" punishment was devised. Another possibility is that the rest of the Koriani (who would be aware of Enithen Tuer's former membership) might believe she has something important she could blackmail Morriel with - such as the secret that Morriel is also the Madam of a successful House of Ill Repute.

Or, MAYBE, Elaira does not WANT to ask for her freedom, because she wants to have an "in" with the Koriani to keep tabs on what they might be plotting against Arithon next. After all, if she WERE to gain her freedom, there is no way she might be given such interesting "assignments" or "confidences" by the Matriarch. She'd just be another Arithon ally targeted for destruction by the Koriani.

Too, there might be other benefits of being a member of the Koriani - after all, they have a pretty strong reputation to fall back upon not only as healers, but as enchantresses, which Elaira used TO THE HILT to protect Fionn Areth way back when in Grand Conspiracy. If Elaira had been free back then, she could NOT have called upon the respect of her order's reputation to back up her claims to be protecting a hapless lookalike.

2. As for what the crystal is up to, NO ONE knows, except for Our Miss Wurts, but we are free to speculate - more than half the fun of this chat area!

A) The crystal itself might be setting something up for Elaira to claim her eventual freedom. It could very easily be building upon the knowledge it has gained, from communicating with native Atheran stones, to conspire with its fellow enslaved crystals, to throw a serious monkey wrench into Koriani plans. After all, it is a "field crystal," meaning that it has been out and about, and the master crystals, the Skyron and the Great Waystone, could be compiling information to use against Morriel and the rest of the Koriani powers that be, but the time isn't ripe, for whatever reason.

B) The crystal is afraid of being alone, away from its "sister stones" in the order. Not being a native Athera stone, it might be afraid of being away from its "sisters" even if that does mean it has to remain enslaved.

C) The Adept brother who came to Elaira and kept her from cleansing the stone did so at Sethvir's request, since the removal of the Koriani longevity bindings would have revealed that the bindings over Elaira had been supplanted by F7 LotMB approved longevity bindings. The crystal might have realized this, and decided to remove itself from Elaira's presence, so she would not discover this either, and thus cause more trouble however inadvertantly.

D) The crystal (somehow!) knew what Ath's Adepts were likely to teach Elaira, and did not want to interfere in her education. If it were present, she would want to free it, and that might cause a serious backlash from the Koriani Seniors.

E) IF the crystal did know or understand what Elaira would learn in her time with the Adepts, it wanted her to come back to it as an enlightened person, and be able to greet her fully and with the love (I believe) it has for her. Elaira would understand the lesson the crystal was trying to teach her, and would take it with her when she got free (one way or another) from the Koriani.

F) The crystal knew of the supplanting of the forced longevity bindings, and grieved for its part in potentially harming Elaira IF it was discovered that those bindings were gone. The crystal might have, as the Fire Lady of Jaelot told Arithon, marked Elaira as a friend (or even more) and would have sacrificed its chance at freedom to protect Elaira.

G) Disapproving of the subtle trap Morriel laid on Elaira, and the weight of an Oath of Debt could have caused for Elaira to give in to the temptation to help Arithon, it decided to remove itself from being used so shamelessly. After all, Asandir (way back when in CotM) told Dakar that rocks have a great deal of respect for politeness. Dakar himself finally understood this when Kharadmon "borrowed" his body, and heard the anguish of Rockfell Peak, knowing it had "failed" to contain the Iyats and other nuisances. So, the crystal, IF it somehow adheres to the Atheran/F7 interpretation of things, might be doing this out of politeness, until things work out much better to rejoin Elaira.

Gads, I hope I haven't put anyone to sleep!

Janny, Trys, Hunter, Andrew - chime in if I missed anything!

Laneth, remember, you ASKED for it! ;^)

Devena - good questions and welcome to the board!

   By Blue on Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 06:13 am: Edit Post


Forgot to add the request for Sandtiger to put in HER chimes as well!

(Sorry Jana!)

   By Hunter on Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 08:56 am: Edit Post


Here are some of my thought for the original questions raised by Devena:

1. Why doesn't Elaira ask for Fellowship intervention to be released from her initiate's vow of service like Enithen Tuer did?
- It doesn't appear that Elaira is aware that option is available to her. Although she met Enithen Tuer early in Curse, Elaira's interest was Arithon and Lysaer, not Enithen.
- The Law of the Major Balance precludes the Fellowship, or Ath's Adepts, overtly mentioning it. They can obliquely do so but the request has to come from Elaira as a specific request, which doesn't appear to comprehend is an option.
- Stormed Fortress - gave some pointed information that the removal of Koriani strictures (being based on forced mastery) generally could not be done without scarring (which I take is residual damage).
- it's also possible that Elaira may wish to remain with the confines of the Koriani order to limit or completely negate what Morriel/Selidie is trying to do - which might be easier as a Koriani than not.

2. Does the uncleared crystal's preference to remain in Koriathain service have anything to do with the longevity binding augmented by the Fellowship.
- When Elaira's longevity bindings were "adjusted" by Kharadmon, it was done such that Morriel wouldn't notice. This may or may not have required consent from her personal crystal. I would doubt it as that would involve the Fellowship interfering with a non-Atheran artifact - unless the crystal voluntarily offered its assistance to Kharadmon
- The crystal is sentient and seemingly powerful. It might have seen a future scenario that it wanted to partake in and hence stay uncleared.
- Having seen what happened to another sister when her crystal was cleared by Caolle, perhaps the crystal did not want the same type of thing happening to Elaira.

On Blue's points:
- Enithen Tuer may have had some knowledge of LotMB, been given to Koriani when young and wanted out at a later stage. The scarred lady in Jaelot still seems a conundrum of another Koriani escapee - although her injuries seem to be more revenge by the Koriani than anything else.
- the possibility of communication or otherwise sharing of feelings/knowledge/intent between Elaira's personal crystal and the native Atheran crystal she bought cannot be underestimated. So I like the stone conspiracy theory, just not sure it's practical.

Having her personal crystal removed from Elaira also removed some potentially thorny plot questions.. given Arithon put the melody into Lirenda's personal crystal that got her all aflutter with his manliness and compassion, what would have happened had Elaira been wearing her personal spell crystal in the heat of passion with Arithon? Would it have melted down? Fed the passion back through Skyron to Morriel and Lirenda to pore over, understand or simply be overwhelmed at the raw emotion being driven through the crystals?

Although, I guess Selide's actions to get at Arithon that were thwarted by Alithiel and Alestron's Paravian wards seemed to show that physical proximity of Elaira's spell crystal wasn't terribly relevant.

   By DarthJazy on Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 10:10 am: Edit Post

I feel I may put my pointless 2 cents in.

Having Read the series 6 times (minus SF ofcourse dam USA publishers) I feel that Elaira is completly and utterly clueless that she can ask to be removed. I noticed with her character that if it envolves something she may want for herself she never sees the way to achieve it. I also think she finds the F7 rather annoying at times and does not fully trust them when it concerns arithon and herself. last now that I think about it Arithon shows this same annoying traight of never realizing the method is right in front of his face to make himself happy.

Bunch of love sick brainlessness going on here god im glad im single again hehe. I like the bit of intelligence I have left.

   By Meredith Lee Gray on Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 12:32 pm: Edit Post

It was Luhaine that reconfigured Elaira's longevity binding.

   By John Parsons on Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 02:58 pm: Edit Post

I think its a lot more complicated than simple ignorance. Both Elaira and Arithon seem to me to be the kind of people who value personal integrity. So E knows she took a vow, and although she may now regret it, it was still a vow.However she has shown that if the chips were down she would break the vow and take the consequences, were Morriel to ask something she just would not do. M knows this and has cleverly avoided putting her in that situation, saying similar to "you don't break a useful tool".My feeling is that eventually M will be driven by anger and desperation to force Elaira to choose between her vow and her values and then Elaira will ask.


   By Lyssabits on Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 03:08 pm: Edit Post

I'm sort of inclined to believe the ignorance idea if only because the F7 have consistently refused to help them with other things that were sort of outside their purview. However both Asandir and (I think?) Karadamon have *strongly* hinted that Elaira should ask.

It is getting a little harder to continue to believe that Elaira just isn't aware, because while I can believe that Elaira might simply be so conditioned to believe her vow is absolute, I have a very hard time with the idea that Arithon hasn't figured it out yet.


But you know, given the extremely heavy-handed way in which Asandir kept asking, "Wouldn't you like to ask us for a FAVOR? Isn't there ANYTHING you REALLY REALLY WANT? Even if it's something you think is impossible we'll TOTALLY HELP YOU OUT!" at the end of Stormed Fortress there, and Elaira COMPLETELY missing the point (I mean my God, Asandir couldn't have been more OBVIOUS without waving an "Ask me about breaking your oath!" banner there..) I can totally believe that she just simply doesn't know. Didn't they make a point about how the binding oath causes stagnation or something rather than allowing for creativity? Maybe in some way the oath limits Elair's ability to understand her options, and because she's so tightly linked to Arithon, he's sort of blinded by her ignorance, at least where this matter is concerned?

   By DarthJazy on Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 12:30 pm: Edit Post

My point exactly Lyssabits Love will bring down Arithon in end just as it nearly destroyed Lysaer and Anakin Skywalker

   By Julie on Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 09:40 pm: Edit Post

Maybe Elaira just wants to leave the order on her own terms and not get anyone else involved. She knows that she is needed alive and well for Selidie to keep track of Arithon. She also knows her life span will be hundreds of years and we've seen how patient she can be. She's obviously not too worried since she is "hand fast to Rathain".

   By DarthJazy on Thursday, December 27, 2007 - 02:11 pm: Edit Post

Is it me or do most stories in our world seem to involve something great getting destroyed for the love of a woman :P lets take a look.

Obvious one is Arithon and Elaira.
Anakin and Padme.
Adam and Eve.
Helen of Troy and her prince names escapes me at the moment.

all done cause a woman thought she could handle it and was wrong and should have asked for help.

   By Meredith Lee Gray on Thursday, December 27, 2007 - 03:07 pm: Edit Post

To be fair, there's probably just as many stories of a man getting into trouble or ruining "something great" because he thought he could handle it and didn't want to ask for help. :-)

   By Jo on Friday, December 28, 2007 - 06:06 am: Edit Post

How many real wars have ever been started by women? Off the top of my head ooh I can't think of any please enlighten me.

Hope everyone had a nice Christmas and have a Happy New Year

   By RapierIan on Friday, December 28, 2007 - 09:16 am: Edit Post

Well, the Trojan War certainly. Also I wouldn't be surprised if some of the English or Spanish queens were responsible for a few wars.

   By Trys on Friday, December 28, 2007 - 09:40 am: Edit Post

DJ, can you expand on your examples. I'm not seeing them.

Ian, So what DID Helen do to start the war? Be born?

I think the political situation of the area had more to do with the Trojan War happening than Paris 'stealing' Helen. Menelaus might have gotten irked by the event but it was Agememnon's desire to have Troy that was probably the primary motivator... or were you being tongue in cheek?


   By RapierIan on Friday, December 28, 2007 - 10:27 am: Edit Post


In some of the accounts, Helen went willingly with Paris. If she did, then she certainly bears some responsibility. Of course, even in that case she was much more of an excuse to go to war than the actual cause.


   By Trys on Friday, December 28, 2007 - 01:00 pm: Edit Post



Helen went willingly with Paris.

Yup... that's why I single quoted the word 'stealing'.

   By Lyssabits on Friday, December 28, 2007 - 02:16 pm: Edit Post

Really the Trojan War had very little to do with Helen and more to do with petty goddesses who were pouty because they weren't invited to a wedding or picked to be the prettiest girl in the room. ;) So I guess still a woman doing the harm, but not because of a man.

   By Blue on Friday, December 28, 2007 - 11:51 pm: Edit Post

It all depends on the source you read - according to Homer (author of the Iliad and the Odyssey), Helen never went to Troy.

The goddesses who were pouting, (Hera, Athena, Aphrodite) had tried to claim the apple Eris (goddess of discord) had rolled through the festivities, marked "to the fairest", out of spite for not being invited to the wedding.

Paris, the Trojan Prince, was asked to judge the three goddesses and decide who was fairest. Hera promised riches, Athena promised wisdom, and Aphrodite promised him the most beautiful woman in the world as his wife. He judged in favor of Aprhodite, who caused Helen to fall in love with him - according to some versions.

The complication came up, however, that Helen was already married, to Menelaus, King of Sparta. Paris abducted Helen - again, depending upon the source, she went willingly. There are sources that imply Aphrodite simply gave Helen to Paris without Helen's consent, and Paris took off with her, in spite of her protests.

Menelaus, who had had a devil of a time competing against all of the Kings of the Greek City-States for her hand, called in a debt from the rest of the Kings. ALL had sworn a vow, when accepting Helen's choice of husband, to protect her and to help recover her if she were kidnapped.

Paris, when he performed the judgment, was in exile, because due to a prophecy, HE was supposed to be the reason Troy would be destroyed.

   By DarthJazy on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 02:41 pm: Edit Post

ok time to clarify. maybe i should say men should stop going after women


Fall of the Republic because anakin loved padme. Padme could have said no the whole time and stopped much death.

On the other hand its widly beleaved the will of the force caused this change of power. Anakin through the love of his son Luke; still destroyed the emperor. (it is widly beleaved that Luke is the living will of the force) Yoda admits that he trained the Jedi for 800 years to fight the same Sith menace while the Sith had evolved. This would be the perfect chance for the force to implement change)

Adam and Eve

Adam listened to Eve and ate the apple because Eve was weak and listened to a snake. Here a man should have put his foot down and since he didn't we lost paradise.


I feel that since we know the war took place and the Horse was real that what happened was Helen and Paris fell in love and ran away together and even though people wanted an excuse anyway Helen would have known this and should not have gone. Paris may have been nieve to the idea that the greeks were just itching for a reason to take them out.


Now correct me if I am wrong for I am American and we may be wrong on this.

One of the bloodiest and warlike monarchs in your history was Mary queen of scotts?


Here I admit the bloodiest wars in human history have been over religion. To date and my knowledge the most bloody and costly war in history was the 7 year war with the holy roman empire. Now considering many of these wars were fought of view points of the bible some of them have been fought over Jesus mother when a sect seperated from the church to worship her and there has been much bloodshed over the correct view point of Mary Magdolin.

In the end Maybe I should change my stance and say Men need to stop loving in general. Where this won't stop war it will stop some war and we would still all be living in paradise.

   By Julie on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 03:47 pm: Edit Post

The bloodiest wars may have been fought in the name of religion, but really they were about power and commodities.

   By DarthJazy on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 04:57 pm: Edit Post

hince why i hate all organized religion i find yhe funniest religious war was when england monarch became his own religion of god to get divorced

   By Jo on Friday, January 04, 2008 - 05:08 am: Edit Post

Not to offend anyone but I am not religious at all. Relgion can be elightenment for some but more often than not the reason for war. Pushing your views on to another person/s or country doesn't seem right to me. Who is to say who is right and who is wrong. There can be 1 god or many gods how do we know we don't.

Mary wasn't warlike but a religious nut and did have a lot of people burnt at the stake she wanted everyone to become catholic.

Not that I want to get into a religous debate but why is Mary Magdalene's point of view correct?

   By RapierIan on Friday, January 04, 2008 - 09:49 am: Edit Post

On the other hand, I think the last century proved, between China and the Soviet Union, that atheism can be just as bloody as any religion.

   By Clansman on Friday, January 04, 2008 - 11:58 am: Edit Post

Don't forget Germany, Japan, and Italy in the 1930's and 1940's.

The bloodiest war in history, for soldiers, was the Great War (World War I) 1914-1918. World War II was much less bloody for soldiers, but much more so for civilians (Holocaust for Jews, Romani, physically and mentally disabled, and Slavic peoples).

And the ethnic conflicts in Africa and the Balkans of the 1990s. More recently Darfur in Sudan.

And the geo-political interference of the United States in Latin America throughout the 20th century, not to mention Africa, the Middle East (anyone remember the Shah of Iran? Man, has that ever come back to bite the CIA in the rear) and South East Asia.

It appears that political leaders as well as religious leaders can easily abandon their founding principles for the sake of their desired ends. I submit that if political and religious leaders actually followed what there principles were, then the world would be much more peaceful.

I am forbearing from answering Darth-Jazy's take on the history of war, Adam and Eve and the like, or even the idea that the post-Reformation wars in Europe had anything to do with Mary Magdalene. Mary Queen of Scots was never Queen of England. She was executed by Elizabeth I, Queen of England. England's bloodiest monarch, tough call. Henry VIII? Charles I? Edward I? Richard III? Bloody Mary wasn't, because she didn't reign long enough (that was Elizabeth I's older half-sister).

Star Wars was just a story created by George Lucas, not history. The Republic fell because he wanted it to fall. The characters did what they did because Lucas wanted it to happen. The Republic's fall was simply a good plot device borrowed from Roman history.

For the record, I know I should not have typed that last paragraph...

   By Clansman on Friday, January 04, 2008 - 12:01 pm: Edit Post

Isn't this thread supposed to be about Elaira?

DJ, you have to read SF. That alone will tell you that Arithon's love for Elaira doesn't destroy anything, but rather creates things, and makes resolutions possible where they seem impossible.

   By Clansman on Friday, January 04, 2008 - 12:04 pm: Edit Post

To go back to a previous point, could Elaira's vow to the Koriathain keep her a little blind to the possibility of asking for F7 intervention? She is an intelligent, resourceful and strong woman, and cannot see what appears to be quite obvious.

Could this almost willful blindness be a symptom of the binding sigils imposed on her when she took her vows?

   By DarthJazy on Friday, January 04, 2008 - 04:43 pm: Edit Post

There is a point that i hadn't considered. I supposed the binding to the Korathi may cause he to over look anything that might help break such binding. dam now i have to think again.

And my over all point before was to say is Love worth it in the end. From my percpective and I am biased it is not. I am sorry for derailing the discussion about elaira.

   By max on Monday, January 07, 2008 - 05:53 am: Edit Post

Have any of you ever read 'Gone with the Wind'? Rhett Butler said "Virtue is a matter of money". If there were no religion or politics or race or ideals to fight over, humans would find something else to fight over. And it is not all our fault either. Since everything has to be in balance in order to exist, then there can be no order without chaos, no light without dark, etc. 'They are brothers eternal'. It's the way all of nature is. Do you really think that only lions have the right to eat? The sad thing of it is, I really hate the way this all balances out. I hate lions and wolves and all the predators in the world, human and animal, that eat the young first because they are easier to hunt. But like all the rest, I can't eat air. And I can't be God and find a better way either. Damn it all anyway!!! [grinning at ya]

   By Sundancer on Wednesday, January 09, 2008 - 06:13 am: Edit Post

Oooh, so many things to say. DarthJazy I'm sorry that you feel love has hurt you so much. I can empathise, after two bad relationships I'm in no hurry to start up a new one, but I still believe in the value of love, and the many many types of love and the goodness that love brings, when it is truly love (which is selfless).

I love Max's quote of Rhett Butler, but I can't really agree. Surely one of Janny's points in this saga is that we can ALL, whatever our situation, make a choice about how we behave. I agree that it is much much easier to behave well when we are well fed and comfortable and loved, and in appalling situations few people behave well, but we have the capacity to do so. I was shown a wonderful quotation yesterday to the effect that yes we must take from other species in order to live, but it is HOW we do it that matters, and we need to do so respectfully and humbly.



Regarding Enithen Tuer, didn't she only get/seek her freedom after travelling through the Sanpashir desert? Another story that would be fascinating - seems both the Biedar and the Fellowship had a hand in her freedom.

Spoiler 2
I got the impression from Stormed Fortress that Elaira knew exactly what she was doing, and that she knew she could have asked for more assistance from Asandir. She deliberatley chose to find out what the purpose of her crystal was in it's seeking to be returned to the Koriathain, and she felt she should honour its choice and declaration of friendship(?) for her, no matter the risk.

Admittedly, she and Arithon are stubbornly independent, and Arithon will seek as little help as possible from the Fellowship, BUT she is on record as accepting help offered before (e.g. Davien), so I think that if it weren't for the crystal she'd have accepted Asandir's offer on the spot.

   By Clansman on Wednesday, January 09, 2008 - 11:05 am: Edit Post

I have to echo Sundancer, DJ. True love is selfless. In a perfect marriage (they don't exist, except for moments in time), each partner sacrifices everything for the other, thus it is a self-perpetuating circle of support. Good marriages (legal or otherwise) achieve this some of the time. Great marriages achieve this slightly more than half the time. Trouble is, two humans remaining selfless constantly just doesn't happen.

"A man has no greater love than this: that he lay down his life for his friends." Can two people who love each other lay down their lives, their wishes, their selfishness, their demands, their desires, their shortcomings, their needs, etc. and ad infinitum, for each other? Yes, they can, but it requires effort, and there are always moments that will require repentance and forgiveness, and vice versa.


Elaira. She did appear to know what she was doing. Is she the Martin Luther of the Koriathain? With her knowledge of Koriathain sigils, the LotMB, and the healing ways of Ath's Adepts, she would be an ideal candidate. Imagine a benevolent Koriathain, that did not use coercion and debt (bloody life-loan sharks is what they are!), but simply acted selflessly, with permission?

Elaira may very well be the vessel by which the corruption of the Koriathain is expunged.

   By DarthJazy on Wednesday, January 09, 2008 - 12:22 pm: Edit Post

I wonder if she may be the one to throw down seldie and lead the koriathain to be one with LotMB and pehaps be another group similar to aths adepts.

   By Julie on Wednesday, January 09, 2008 - 12:44 pm: Edit Post

Clansman- do you mention Martin Luther solely on his views on buying/selling indulgences? Granted he was a radical thinker and a much needed questioner of the Catholic Church doctrine/practices but he was not benevolent. ALthough he may have tried to curb the fanatical violence against CHristians he had no problem when turned towards Jews.

   By Clansman on Wednesday, January 09, 2008 - 03:36 pm: Edit Post

Julie: Excellent point. I mentioned Martin Luther only as the catalyst that got the ball rolling on reformation of the Christian church in general. By the sixteenth century, anti-semitism was an epidemic in Europe, and most Christians at the time believed the Jews to be evil, as Jews, according to church doctrine, "caused the death of Christ".

That view of the Jews has been completely torn to shreds in the centuries since. Christians, if they believe that Jesus is the Son-portion of the triune God, must perforce believe that Jesus chose to go to the Cross and was in total control of his fate, regardless of what (a sector of) the Jews of his time did. This belief that Jesus chose his death is central to standard Christian theology, and the weird twisting of standard Christian doctrine that occurred between Nicea and the Reformation is just now finishing its "untwisting".

The human church that put Christ's name on it has a lot to answer for.

I never thought Luther was benevolent, and I certainly don't hold him out that way. It has taken another several centuries of reform in most Christian denominations (I am personally non-denominational) to leave that evil legacy behind. Luther was very much a product of his age in that respect.

I hope that clears up my comment. Elaira is waaaaaaaaaay better than Luther. I was simply trying to make a rather tenuous comparison between human organizations.

   By Julie on Sunday, January 13, 2008 - 11:05 pm: Edit Post

I just thought Martin Luther was an interesting choice as an example of catalyst for change. Although as you've said, the change was profound and has been playing out over centuries. (500 year fountain??)

While the doctrines of many Protestant religions have overturned the original teachings that Jews were "evil", ignorance and distrust continue to keep antisemitism on simmer.

Martin Luther was a product of his time as Thomas Jefferson was. He wrote the brilliant Declaration of Independance while keeping slaves!

   By Trys on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 06:19 am: Edit Post


Thomas Jefferson was. He wrote the brilliant Declaration of Independance while keeping slaves!

While professing to be against slavery and purportedly saying he was resolved to free his slaves... something he did posthumaously. While many (most?) consider him to be a great man this hypocrisy always kept him from being that... in my mind at least.

   By DarthJazy on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 12:42 pm: Edit Post

Wow a topic derailment that I didn't start. Are you guys and gals feeling ok?

   By Julie on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 12:57 pm: Edit Post

Jefferson was human and flawed. However he did great things- take your time reading the Declaration of Independence (which he wrote)- basically he and the other signers were committing treason against the king of England with the understanding that they could hang for this crime.

   By Meredith Lee Gray on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 02:23 pm: Edit Post

Like most historical figures and "facts", Jefferson and his 'hypocrisy' is not as simple as some would make it sound. It was a very interesting, human, and well-documented dilemma he had. I completely sympathize with Jefferson's motives, even though in a modern setting they don't really make sense, I can see how they would back then. And I realize that he was a human and flawed (as Julie said) and even though most of us would like to throw off the shackles of mundane life and societal guidelines... it's easier said than done.

I would think that readers of Janny's series would know better than to oversimplify the lives and actions of historical humans as either "good" or "bad."

   By Clansman on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 03:48 pm: Edit Post

History is replete with examples of "great" people who by modern standards did very evil things. The judgments stated above about Luther and Jefferson are two examples of what might be called "historicist hypocrisy". Looking back with 21st century eyes, it is easy to decry Jefferson's ownership of slaves, or Luther's anti-semitism. To us, putting people in bondage to force labour from them, or judging people by their faith or ethnicity is fundamentally evil. However, Jefferson was the product of centuries of a society that had slavery as a centerpiece of its economy, just as Luther's anti-semitism was endemic to Europe at the time, and survived to grow into the Holocaust of the 1940's. Only now is it relegated to fringe, fanatic groups (I hope and pray!).

I wonder how the future will judge us as a society, or the "great" people in our society. Will Al Gore be featured for his hypocrisy, for catalyzing the movement to curb global warming, at the same time as using colossal amounts of electricity? Who knows? I shudder to think that our age of existence might be judged on the basis of a Paris Hilton or Brittany Spears, but then, it may be what our society deserves.

DJ, we did not get off track. We merely followed the track where it went.

   By Julie on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 03:52 pm: Edit Post

I did not mean to oversimplify Jefferson's life. He is a facinating figure anything but simple. His "hypocrisy" has to be seen in the context of the times. For example how easy would it have been for a freed mixed race female to survive in peri revolutionary America? Could a self reliant plantation survive without slave labour? Which "rights of man" does the government ensure early on to get consensus?
If possible, a trip to Monticello is well worth it

   By DarthJazy on Friday, February 01, 2008 - 01:26 pm: Edit Post

Ok just stopping by to add a note to answer this debate. Im a little over half way through and I read this passage early on she said : if not me you would hve another koriathain appointed to your princes fate. she would be a huntress ruled by hate." it goes on from there saying she seeks a way to triumph and i cant find passage ill post it when i can but she states she is beyond fellowship help because of the free will choice of her crystal that noone understand.

so she does know she can ask for help but she both chooses to stay so that its her the kori use and not another plus the fellowship los tthe ability to help her when her crystal gave free consent.


   By Clansman on Friday, February 01, 2008 - 02:56 pm: Edit Post

What the heck did you just say???

   By DarthJazy on Friday, February 01, 2008 - 03:26 pm: Edit Post

basically there are passages in the book that prove that Elaira is aware of what the fellowship could have done for her ,but thanx to her personal crystal free choice to return to the Koriathain and stay bonded to Elaira, the fellowship can no longer help her. she also chose to stay so that another, more evil and talented woman, would not be selected.

   By Clansman on Friday, February 01, 2008 - 03:53 pm: Edit Post

Finish reading the book, DJ. I get the impression from the F7 that it doesn't matter what Elaira's crystal thinks, she would be free simply by asking for autonomy from her vows. The vows, after all, are not exactly freely given, but rather imposed by the parents' pledge of their child to Koriani service (if I have this wrong, someone upbraid me).

I disagree, in that I don't think Elaira is totally aware that she can be free from the Koriani. She does not see any way to be free, but she certainly wishes it.

This being said, she is using her position to her and Arithon's greatest advantage, all the while being the bait on the hook for Arithon, with Selidie holding the fishing rod.

I also don't think that Arithon would let a Koriani close to him, save Elaira, so her worries about someone else looking over his shoulder seem a bit misplaced. The quote you cite I think relates to the crisis at hand, and the reaction of certain s'Brydion family members? I don't know, I'll have to look it up. Give me a page no. if you can.

   By DarthJazy on Friday, February 01, 2008 - 06:26 pm: Edit Post

page 37. 6th paragraph

page 264 1st paragraph "the fellowship Sorcerers power to act in her behalf remained tied by the inexplicable choice of her personal qaurtz.

   By DarthJazy on Friday, February 01, 2008 - 06:28 pm: Edit Post

I take these sections to mean that to free Elaira they free her stone since the Kori never gained proper permission and since the stone chose to stay there aint crap they can do now.