Thoughts on completion of Initiate's Trial. DO NOT READ UNTIL YOU FINISH!!

Janny Wurts Chat Area: Arc 4: Sword of the Canon: Initiate's Trial: Spoiler Topics: Thoughts on completion of Initiate's Trial. DO NOT READ UNTIL YOU FINISH!!

   By Sleo on Thursday, June 06, 2013 - 05:12 pm: Edit Post

I'm not Annette, but I imagine Bransian would be there because Jeynsa was marrying his brother.


   By Annette on Friday, June 07, 2013 - 05:48 am: Edit Post

Jeynsa was marrying Bransian's cousin, his mother's sister's son Sevrand, who had previously been Bransian's heir. The broad shouldered, tawny haired young giant(born 5648) Jeynsa was always sparring with. Bransian's surviving brothers were Parrien and Mearn. I would think an invested Caithdein marrying someone of another named heritage, from another realm would be an event, and Sevrand would not have come without any family.

Eriegal had no reason to hate Arithon, he had trouble trusting him, but still he chose to swear fealty, and after that Jeynsa stormed off and ended up at Alestron. That had to have had some affect on Eriegal's state of mind, both her accusations and that Jeynsa could have been killed. Eriegal would have worried about her and as hinted, he might have blamed Arithon.

Eriegal was willing to back Jeynsa in her bid against Arithon, why not back some one else with a grudge against Arithon? Eriegal might have been sympathetic to the s'Brydion. There is no way Eriegal would have ever handed Arithon over to the Koriani, so who did he think he was handing him over to?

Bransian already proved how low he would go to get what he wanted, and under Morriel's influence he already tried to kill Arithon once, he would be prime suspect.


quote:

‘No get of mine would embrace such dishonour!’ Bransian’s glare showed blazing contempt. ‘Shame on your words, Sorcerer! Such as Sevrand’s become, he would run himself through, first.
Stormed Fortress pg 61




What was Jeynsa doing while Arithon was being betrayed and spirited away almost under her very roof? Were the young lovers maybe spending a bit of time together the night before the wedding? Cut off from outside distractions maybe? If it was the s'Brydion responsible, I doubt Sevrand would be in on it. Sevrand realised how he had been used and what his family had been responsible for, he might not have been willing to survive the dishonour. Jeynsa might have been a widow real quick. The warning Jeynsa was given about what her betrayal would cost her, might not have been avoided by Arithon saving her life. Among other things she lost, maybe Jeynsa lost the love of her life?


   By Sleo on Friday, June 07, 2013 - 08:56 am: Edit Post

Eriegal was one of the companions, one of the kids who were survivors of Tal Quorin. He hated Arithon for the loss of his family and most of his clan.

I forgot Sevrand was a cousin, not a brother of Bransian.

I guess we'll have to wait until the next book to find all the motives.


   By Annette on Saturday, June 08, 2013 - 06:23 pm: Edit Post

Why would Eriegal hate Arithon? You think he was maybe evil or suicidal? He swore an oath of fealty, especially the clans take such things very seriously. Eriegal warned Jeynsa about the dangers of her questions. Where in any of the books did it say he hated Arithon? Distrust needs a fair bit of influence to flower into hate. Even if Eriegal mistook Arithon's handling of Jeynsa in the worst possible way, would he hate Arithon? Arithon as usual stayed away from his feal following in the time between the end of Stormed Fortress and when he was captured, so there would be nothing at play other than what we have seen.

It is Arithon's fate to empathise with everyone, he understood the weakness that lead to his betrayal, and forgave Eriegal. As usual Arithon accepted responsibility for a horrific massacre against the clans, even though it was Lysaer and the townsmen invading where they should not have been. Arithon understood all their motives as well, so would have also forgiven all of them and accepted responsibility for what happened. But would Eriegal have hated Arithon for what happened at Tal Quarin? It never as far as I know said that in any of the books. Arithon understood the weakness that allowed Eriegal's betrayal and forgave it, but the "tangled by a misguided revenge" part would seem to indicate what happened might not have been what Eriegal intended. We have yet to see how it all played out.

I gave one explanation for why Eiregal might have mistakenly thought Arithon should be handed over to the s'Brydion, even though it was still crown treason, they were clan, Eriegal might have thought they would not harm Arithon, although we know differently. Eriegal might have felt Arithon should have and could still do more to help them.

Another option is that Selidie as usual exploited a weakness to get what she wanted. Whether it was Eriegal's, Bransian's or someone else's we already know she was involved and ended up with Arithon. No one born to a clan heritage would have ever of their own free will and unimpeded judgement have handed Arithon over to the Koriani.

Look at how Morriel/Selidie and even Lirenda gain access to their victims. Talvish could not be suborned, it is explained why. Elaira helped Parrien heal his unresolved issues, and he also could no longer be used by the Koriani. It was also mentioned, that for Lysaer to be taken by the mistwraith, there had to be an opening, Lysaer later admitted himself what that unresolved conflict was. Arithon went through Kewar to resolve all his issues, although obviously that only works for a time, he would have others now wearing his bleeding heart on his sleeve like he does.

When Lysaer is freed of the curse, you think he is still going to hate Arithon, that he would have wanted to kill him? Maybe Eriegal was in fact all too willing to die for his actions, since he would never have wanted to do such a horrific thing to Arithon, and brought such shame on them all. Janny is no doubt going to return to those events in the next book, although depending on who's perspective is used we still might not see everything. I would sort of expect to get a lot of things from Jeynsa's perspective. Fate spared Jeynsa from having to execute her friend. Braggen was not so lucky. :-(


   By Sleo on Saturday, June 08, 2013 - 08:32 pm: Edit Post

Annette, if you recall, some of the clan blamed Arithon for the attack on Tal Quorin back in book 1, Curse of the Mistwraith. Eriegal never got over it. There are mentions of it throughout the books. Most of them don't name him specifically, but he was the one. It had nothing to do with Jeynsa or the later stuff, except that all of it added to his burning hatred. He was just a kid when it happened and he wasn't able to get over it.


   By Sleo on Saturday, June 08, 2013 - 08:33 pm: Edit Post

But let's ask Janny. It's her story, I'm sure she knows the answer. But I thought it was fairly clear in Initiate's Trial.


   By Gary on Sunday, June 09, 2013 - 10:09 am: Edit Post

Wasn't there also Deith, who patrolled Strakewood alone after Tal Quorin? I thought he was the person with the most unresolved issues around that battle; but we never really encountered him in the story because of his solo vigil.

Eriegal I saw as distrustful, he never understood Arithon. It was a shame he was asleep when the discussion about Arithon going to fight necromancy happened; a lot of things could have gone differently. His support of Jeynsa could be seen as bordering on betrayal, but then it could also be seen as his duty to support a caithdein against suspected dark practice by a prince. Going from there to handing Arithon over to Koriathain... doesn't make sense to me.

I like Annette's version of events, but we really need to find out more (next book next book next book).


   By Annette on Sunday, June 09, 2013 - 07:26 pm: Edit Post

But Skeo, Janny already answered it in Stormed Fortress. Eriegal swore fealty, he would not have done that if he hated Arithon. In his conversation with Jeynsa, her Sight would have detected any threat, all it told her was that Eriegal still did not fully trust Arithon, she assumed he had lost that trust, but actually he never had it to lose in the first place. Eriegal never did or said anything out of line, it was Jeynsa's questions that were bordering on Crown Treason, and Eriegal did point that out.

Even Sidir that paragon of insight, said Eriegal had never found trust in Arithon. So amongst that clan and all its talents, if Eiregal had been Arithon's enemy, it would have been known. Perhaps that is why Deith stayed on in Deshir, but we are not likely to ever know how he felt about Arithon.

Certainly they had intended to keep Jeynsa away from Arithon till he could be given a proper welcome. And even people in other kingdoms knew about the problem with Jeynsa, Arithon had already been warned, which is why he came prepared. Does not seem likely Eriegal would be able to keep any burning hatred of Arithon a secret. if anything happened to change that it happened after Jeynsa left on her little jaunt over to Melhalla.

And Eriegal would not have been thinking Arithon was some necromancer, he would have stayed for the explanation.


   By Janny Wurts on Saturday, June 15, 2013 - 08:42 am: Edit Post

Hi Sleo: you asked for clarification regarding some points ongoing in the discussion: specifically Eriegal's loyalty.

I am hesitant to answer ALL OF THIS outright, as it will surely unveil a few things prematurely (all of those 'back scenes' that were spoken of in Initiate's Trial are 'shown' from one or another character's point of VIEW - are they entirely right in their interpretations???

In lieu of answering outright and taking out all of the interplay that WILL bud out and happen in the story line yet to emerge, I can point to a few things to consider before those climactic scenes are unveiled in your hands.

Eriegal: read into the scenes with him. HE IS A DEEPLY LAYERED/CONFLICTED PERSONALITY.

Oaths of Fealty: look carefully at these, from a liegeman's stance: what is he swearing TO uphold; and what does any sanctioned crown sovereign STAND FOR .... note: a crown prince as differentiated from a crowned sovereign.

Note: the scene at Athir (Stormed Fortress) where DAKAR swore a binding oath - in behalf of the crown/IN THE NAME OF THE FELLOWSHIP SORCERERS. NOTE: the Fellowship's scathing reaction (when Asandir finally unburdened that(Initiate's Trial)

Who betrayed whom?
And do you KNOW, yet, by eye witness: that Eriegal actually did: Exactly what???

The legal obligations, all of them, are set down in plain words: black and white. The gray area of human nature of course, has to be accounted for, AND THE RELIABILITY OF THE NARRATORS.

Then, of course, there is the moral high ground from which each character chooses to act....and that is not always stated, but must come out as the story unfolds.

Let the speculation continue....?


   By Sleo on Saturday, June 15, 2013 - 11:10 am: Edit Post

LOL, a Janny Wurts answer if I ever read one! And Just when I thought I knew the answers. And Kudos to Annette, who always seems to know the answers,


   By Janny Wurts on Saturday, June 15, 2013 - 01:55 pm: Edit Post

Ah, well, as a parting note, she doesn't.... :-)


   By Annette on Saturday, June 15, 2013 - 08:51 pm: Edit Post

Thanks for the reply Janny, although I have to admit sometimes I feel a quote from Dakar fits perfectly with trying to find hints and clues.

'Can’t you tell me straight just once in a century?'

Hopefully in the final book. :-)



And absolutely I do not know the answers, Janny has had me sitting here for ages trying to guess. And I can be spectacularly wrong as well, and very stubborn to give up on a notion without being hit over the head with proof. So you guys are meant to be trying to topple me off my perch. I have a terrible memory, I might have missed something, that and my mind certainly does not think normally sometimes.

But I still feel Eriegal did what he thought was best for the clans, and no way would he have ever handed Arithon over to the Koriani. Those two notions are complete opposites.


So either Eriegal made a spectacular mistake with dire consequences, or Selidie was as usual manipulating things in the background. There had to be someone else involved, that Janny is keeping very quiet about. And until Janny gives us another clue (that I can actually understand) I am sticking with the one we know Selidie can manipulate and who would have been there, Bransian s'Brydion. Liesse and Sindelle might be as susceptible, but what mischief could they do without Bransian? Eriegal would have helped them if he thought he could, and I think he would have thought Arithon owed them some help.

As to Janny's as usual not very clear reply, I will provide a quote of Steiven's from CotM


quote:

'You are Teir's'Ffalenn, and sanctioned for succession by the hand of Asandir. I am sworn to serve your line, as my forefathers before me were appointed regents of the realm until return of Rathain's true high king.'




Arithon was never crowned, and as Jieret already demonstrated, it is the Caithdein who is regent and who decides what is best for the crown. That post not being claimed at the time in question we already know was important.

Also Eriegal gave his oath of fealty before Earl Barach.


quote:

Other unsworn clansfolk might come forward tomorrow. But Barach, as the inheriting chieftain, must acknowledge his sovereign ahead of them.
-Traitor's Knot



   By Neil on Tuesday, June 18, 2013 - 09:42 am: Edit Post

Yes - I reread that Asandir/Dakar exchange...Asandir was "ungentle"...

Dakar got officially fingered with responsibilty for Athir and the F7 took 200 years to tell him presumably because he did not ask :-)?

Or a seized opporunity to allow dakar to act independently of F7 post Koriani actions?

Arithon was presumably betrayed (according to Fionn prophesy but by who?) Dakar made a mistake...but is Arithon going to see Dakar as the cause of the loss of a daughter? The F7 seem to think so. The price of humanity's survival at that point?

I think I need to reread some more...:-)


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