Speculation (Spoiler Rules Apply)

Janny Wurts Chat Area: Arc 4: Sword of the Canon: Destiny's Conflict: Speculation (Spoiler Rules Apply)

   By Annette on Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 05:37 pm: Edit Post

The very fact that it will be Elaira that hands Arithon the knife, was what gave her hope in IT, the Biedar gave her that. They have chosen Elaira as their emissary to Arithon for good reason. Which was an interesting comparison to the false religion of the Light sending their Light's Hope off to Lysaer, who is a false avatar.

Human civilization and Ithamon are connected, for Ithamon to be rebuilt, the virtues each tower represents must be restored to civilization first, before that tower can be restored and maintained. More towers are likely to fall considering the way they are going when last we saw them. So not only the conflict has to end, but a lot of changes be made probably including the end to the separation of the townborn and the clans. So long as the townborn remain blind to the mysteries, the divide between them will likely increase. Davien knew that, he has a different plan in mind to solve it, involving Arithon. And notice Daviens attitude to Elaira, she is part of it to.

It was Sethvir who thought Elaira as Koriani Prime tied by love to Arithon would yield up a frightening collusion. Which would be a good thing! Might make the Fellowship even a bit redundant with those two being the guiding light for humanity.

I think once free of the curse, a dragon might be quite entranced with Lysaer, and not for his pretty words and looks. I think someone has to make some sort of agreement with the dragons for humanity to stay. It cannot I think be the Fellowship, since if the comapact is to fall, they will be aligned with the dragons by their previous commitment, they cannot stand in humanity's defense. Arithon might not be on Athera at the critical moment. And Arithon, apart from his subjects in Rathain, has never taken on responsibility for the townborn, Lysaer is the one who played the role of their protector, he lead them astray, so he should have to make good on his promise to protect them. Especially as it would have been Lysaer responsible for them being in danger in the first place.

The townborn were always going to eventually break the compact, Davien knew it, the rest of the Fellowship knew it, the arrival of the half brothers just sped things up a bit. Lysaer will feel personally responsible, we saw to what depths he would go to, in order to protect them when he met that centaur guardian. Lysaer is potentially Arithons equal, Davien was real careful to keep Arithon away from any dragons notice, had to be a reason for it. Lysaer freed of the curse, might do just as well, if his nerves are not completely shot, or he does not commit suicide, once freed of the curse. Although there seems a woeful lack of things binding Lysaer to life, he gave his WORD he would protect them, so I think he would face damnation and possibly becoming a dragon snack to do it. He cannot use force to convince a dragon humanity should remain on Athera. That shiny golden aura, words, and a bit of light? Elemental mastery, how is a dragon going to explain that? No figment there, no drakish dream, they had nothing to do with how that came about. Wait and see what Janny comes up with, but I think it will be Lysaer.


   By Julie on Sunday, June 12, 2016 - 12:21 pm: Edit Post

I read the Beidar as choosing Elaira as emissary to the Koriani. True she has the knife to hand to Arithon but also to wield once herself. She may use it to break the bonds on Lirenda, or since it was used to sever the necromancy ties to Lysaer, it could be used on Selidie. Whatever she chooses, it will most likely change the Koriani Sisterhood in fundamental ways.


   By Annette on Monday, June 13, 2016 - 03:30 am: Edit Post

No way would the Biedar ever send Elaira as an emissary to the Koriani. It would be pointless and just get Elaira killed, or worse.


   By Julie on Tuesday, June 14, 2016 - 05:15 pm: Edit Post

She was the first Koriani to have any dialogue with the Biedar in thousands of years. The Beidar are using her not just as Arithon's lover but as a way to erase their stolen knowledge. Cutting the bonds between Moriel and Selidie would effectively kill the last Prime Matriarch and the ability to access the Waystone.
We have seen already how the Beidar have protected Elaira and manipulated Koriani magic. I doubt they would send her on a mission she was doomed to fail at.


   By Annette on Tuesday, June 14, 2016 - 10:50 pm: Edit Post

Actually Enithen Tuer was the first Koriani to have any dialogue with the Biedar for thousands of years, she also ended up carrying the stone knife, which apparently protected her after she broke her vows to the Koriani order and asked the Fellowship for release.

The Biedar have said nothing about erasing any knowledge, you think they want to kill the entire Koriani order? Elaira herself knows some of that stolen knowledge, you think they want to kill her to keep that knowledge hidden? The very path Elaira is on, seeking the hidden history of her order is probably going to give her more of that knowledge. Yes the Biedar have protected Elaira, so there goes that theory. It is what has been done with the knowledge that is the problem, how it was incorrectly used.

‘Accept your role for the sake of my people, that the wrongness done with our blameless heritage may be ended, put right, and reconciled.’
-Initiate's trial


Nothing there about erasing the stolen knowledge.
Necromancy would be ended, the harm done with it put right, and possibly the reconciliation is something to do with Arithon. Would not need Elaira to be emissary to him if he did not need to be reconciled to something. I doubt it is kingship, but you never know with Janny. Davien had something else in mind, how might Arithon use the knife? Arithon is likely to be free of his ties to Rathain's crown and clans by then. That Elaira is to give it into Arithon's LIVING hand is a clue to what might have already happened.

Arithon is not going to use the knife against Morriel. Look at why the Fellowship could not help Selidie after Morriel's possessed her, Arithon also obeys the Law of the Major Balance. Even if he could free Selidie with just music, and his empathy knew what the real Selidie wanted, I do not think Arithon would use that power against Morriel. The same reasons the Fellowship would not intervene will apply to Arithon. Elaira also would not sacrifice another to free Selidie, and she is hardly going to attack her own Prime, whom she has sworn to serve. Also Lysaer had to use the knife himself to sever the last tie to the necromancers, Selidie and Lirenda do not have use of their own bodies, they cannot use the knife to free themselves.

When re-reading the books, look for how Selidie Prime has set up her own downfall.


   By Julie on Wednesday, June 15, 2016 - 12:15 pm: Edit Post

Learning the history of the Koriani order does not mean learning the knowledge per se, in the same way historians of medicine are not required to go to medical school.

The knife is Not used against flesh- rather the arcane ties of necromancy.In no way did I imply the whole Koriani order be wiped out- rather the access to the all controlling and presumed warped knowledge would be denied without a Prime- (which is why Morriel took up residence inside Selidie).


   By Annette on Wednesday, June 15, 2016 - 09:46 pm: Edit Post

All the koriani, their sigils, the very power they use for healing and other things, it is all based on the stolen knowledge. They cannot unlearn the knowledge, only return it to its original form, like Elaira has done with some of it. Or not use it. But I think they do need to use it, just not the way they have been. Morriel is also the keeper of knowledge only a Prime Matriarch would know, which she does need to pass on. The Koriani order cannot change from within while its head is corrupt, they need a new Prime Matriarch, they need Elaira!

The power Morriel is keeping might not necessarily be part of the stolen knowledge, but the accumulate consciousness and memory of all those primes, all the way back to the beginning which if freed once Morriel is removed, is probably going to pick its own home. Selidie is not likely to be suitable, she had power but no wisdom and we are not sure how she will recover from being possessed or even if she will recover. Lirenda is still flawed, Arithon is a man but otherwise would be perfect, which leaves Elaira. The power presumably cannot be contained by the Waystone or Athera. That Elaira might cause Arithon's downfall depending on how she handles things, makes me think she will have to deal with the consciousness held within a Prime Matriarch, the power is going to end up with her. She might change and turn on Arithon. But that is just the impression I got, could be wrong.

The Biedar knife has to be held, by a flesh and blood being for it to be used. Neither Lirenda nor the possessed Selidie can use it. They have no free will, cannot control their own bodies. Look through the books at what else the knife was used for. Sulfin Evend did not need it after he swore his oath and freed Lysaer. He gave it to Lysaer as a protective talisman. What happened when Sulfin Evend first used the knife, when with Enithen Tuer? Look at how it was used to free Lysaer, especially the words used.

As to Elaira's journey, she learns how the Koriani became so powerful, she might need to claim that power in order to help Arithon. And it has been mentioned that she needs training up. What was it about Hanshire that attracted the koriani and the necromancers? Was it just an outbred clan lineage they were after, or something else? Look at the descriptions we have of Hanshire and Sulfin Evend's home, any clues? Elaira in her quest, might be paying Hanshire a visit.

Another possible clue for Elaira was way back in her past, it was the incident that got her caught and sent to the Koriani orphanage. The stone Elaira used as a child for her ill wish, it was an amethyst.


   By Clansman on Thursday, June 16, 2016 - 08:19 am: Edit Post

The Twisted Sisters (copyright 2007. :-)) might need Elaira to un-twist, but that doesn't mean that will happen. One thing is for sure, Janny does not do Hollywood endings, and that seems a little bit too Hollywood to me. More likely that the Koriani will be completely dismantled and reassembled in a manner that respects the mysteries, and hearkens back to their original purpose, if they continue to exist at all.

The Koriani, like the Light, has become an organization that is more interested in power than anything else. Look at the expenditure of the lives of young Koriani in IT, in what is clearly a necromantic practice, albeit with the "consent" of the participants. I have trouble with consent being extracted from a child, as it is not really consent (see what happened to Fionn Areth in the Alliance Books? Based on a promise of swordsmanship training to a 7 year-old.)

The entire foundation of the Koriani on Athera is morally bankrupt: compulsion, instead of the true informed and willing consent offered by the Fellowship practice under the Law of the Major Balance.

I rather expect the Koriani to implode. However, with Janny's writing, I have learned that what I expect does not usually happen...


   By Julie on Thursday, June 16, 2016 - 11:55 am: Edit Post

Clansman:

Thank you for the above- The Koriani leadership have ALWAYS been portrayed as power hungry and corrupt,even in Sundering Star (the catalyst story). Like you I hope for the sake of satisfying conclusions, that the order reverts back to their ancient and compassionate origins.

But they do not call Janny Madame Talespinner for nothing!

Anette, I thoroughly enjoyed these books for many reasons since the COTM was first published. But I am content to speculate a bit while letting the story unfold. I participate in the chats because it is fun to share ideas with other fans but I do not have your drive to search for clues. I respect your tenacity and thank you for reminding us of details we may have forgotten or overlooked!


   By Annette on Thursday, June 16, 2016 - 07:19 pm: Edit Post

Another clue for Elaira is that off world crystal of hers, wanting to stay in service to the Koriani, which keeps Elaira in the order. It would have a reason for wanting Elaira to remain Koriani. And Elaira is the only Koriani Prime, who would combine the teachings of Ath's brotherhood and the herb witch lore with what the Koriani already know and teach it to her order, thus correcting most of the problems.

There is still the executive, red banded harpy brigade, who might not want to change. Compassion, healing and service for the good of mankind do not seem to be the strong points of some of them. Their purpose was always a mystery. If it is to train up the next prime through the ranks, they might no longer be needed. Elaira could live a very long time, there is no limit set on her longevity, the binding can be renewed, just as Arithon's can.

They can always pack the red banded, unrepentant ones off through one of the worldsend gates. Southgate might be open again by then. And we have yet to learn what the east gate was for.


   By Dorothy on Tuesday, June 21, 2016 - 03:13 pm: Edit Post

Elaira's crystal is self aware and works with Elaira freely and willingly, which must have been a massive revelation to it after centuries of Koriani coercion. It's kept shielded which I presume would isolate it from other crystals under Koriani dominance. Imagine if this crystal could inform all these other crystals about its free choice.


   By Annette on Tuesday, June 21, 2016 - 09:01 pm: Edit Post

The crystal was always self aware, the crystal itself is unchanged. By remaining in service to the Koriani, it gave up its chance to be free, and for Elaira to be free of her vows. Instead of going to the Ath's hostel with Elaira, it went back to the Koriani. The crystal knows Elaira would not sacrifice it to be free, so it has a purpose. It wants Elaira to remain Koriani. Why? Nothing has improved for the crystal it can now be used as tool against Elaira and all she loves. Agreeing to be in service to such an order, even of it's own free will, does not change the horrific things it is being used for. It seems it might now be split in half (remember Elaira's comment on breaking in half?), one half set as a trap for Elaira, other half used to track Arithon. Why would the crystal agree to be used in such a horrific way? Ath's adept gave a hint when he took possession of the crystal and agreed to return it to the order. I think Sethvir might have also commented on the choice.

The personal crystals would I think have no memory of their previous uses over the centuries, they are cleared each time their owner dies, to start fresh with a new Koriani child initiate. It is only the bigger crystals, like the Waystone and Skyron that are not cleared, because they hold records that cannot be lost. The knowledge kept in the waystone, and the imprint of every Koriani initiate that ever swore oath of service on them.

Elaira's imprint is held by the Skyron. Most of the current seniors would I think have also sworn oath on the Skyron. Selidie swore oath on the Waystone, but I think we will find in the next book does not have longevity bindings. Any new initiates who swear oath on the restored Waystone, will be too young to have longevity bindings. If the Skyron is cleared it would possibly kill all those who have longevity bindings, Elaira would be safe, her longevity is not tied to crystal. But I think anyone clearing the crystals would not want to cause harm to seniors who's longevity is tied to the Skyron. So Elaira's oath of service is not likely to be cleared. The Waystone could be cleared without harm. Selidie Prime is certainly not going to clear it, seems more like a task for Arithon.

Or maybe it just breaks in half, although I do not think that would clear it. Purple and gold, Shands colours. Sethvir can access the gold bit, created on Athera, but it is only a tiny streak. But something could yet heat the stone up, create some more cracks. Or there is the free choice thing. What would happen to Elaira's personal crystal if she left the order. What happened to the crystal Selidie prime used to try and kill Arithon, but which killed Teylia instead? Why is it any crystal Teylia touched, shattered? Why did the one imprisoning Arithons spirit shatter? The crystals that guarded the Koriani camp at Alestron also I think shattered when Arithon used Alithiel atop Watch Keep. When Traithe was attempting to save Arithon after he returned from the grimward, he told Dakar to select willing stones, so they would not shatter when heated up. Selidie might yet use the waystone against someone that it would not harm.

It seems the crystals always had some choice, if they chose not to serve, not to be used by the Koriani, they could shatter. Does not seem much of a choice but might be important to what happens next. There is also that promise Selidie Prime made on the Waystone, Waystone might have a third option.


   By Dorothy on Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - 05:14 pm: Edit Post

Interesting. I still think that the crystals in the service of the Koriani are enslaved-for instance the waystone and Skyron have to be wrestled into submission, dominated, before they can be put to use. I think Elaira's crystal has been treated by her with respect and kindness and that, to me,may make a difference.
I will definitely drag out my copies of the books and look up your references Annette, to refresh my memory then I will post again after our referendum results and my son's wedding.
I bet Janny is chuckling away at our speculations (when she has the time that is)


   By Julie on Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - 05:48 pm: Edit Post

Not convinced that Elaira's relationship with her crystal was unique. Even cold hearted manipulative Lirenda was devastated to be separated from hers. Her sense of loss was too deep to come from losing something that had to coerced either by the seniors or herself.


   By Eddie calvin alexander on Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - 06:28 pm: Edit Post

I've been posting through emails and not getting through. lol. My thoughts on Elaira's crystal are that her personal crystal not only has seen qoerking by Ath's adepts but was part of the true working dobe in cobceet with Arithon at merior.It's my belief that Elaira's crystal has been awoken to Truth and as such recognizes the potenial of it's owner.As far as Dakar's vision of Asandir and Arithon .I did have delusions of Arithon ascending in power equal to a fellowship sorceror.That he himself was the black rose that blooms.However the sprout on Karthirr proved that wrong.


   By Annette on Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - 11:06 pm: Edit Post

I would hold on to that black rose growing wild over Daon Ramon a bit longer yet Eddie. There would be a real rose to sprout yet, but there might be another meaning to it as well. We have seen one thing sprout by magic, a black rose suddenly appearing is not impossible, but I doubt it will involve Davien or a dragon. Maybe Arithon eventually asks the Fellowship why they never told him some things.

To fulfill the prophecy, a black rose would have to appear, as well as Arithon being willing to embrace kingship. For a black rose to thrive, a few things yet have to change. Why did Daon Ramon become barren?

You cannot build a new city on Daon Ramon without a good supply of water. Lysaer is I think going to restore something that prophecy needs to be fulfilled. We will have to wait and see if anything else gets to grow wild and free, other than a new plant.


   By Eddie calvin alexander on Thursday, June 23, 2016 - 02:26 am: Edit Post

Sorry for the horrendous grammar.I know years ago the townsmen diverted the sevenir river and thats the cause of the sorry state of Daon Ramon. What i was referencing was in initiates trial when Davien instigated sesh to cause a healing of karthtairr and it says a seed materializes and germinates spontaneously where nothing had grown since the age of dragons.I was thinking that a Drake who thinks all things a figment of its own consciousness would inadvertently create a black rose not knowing the significance of something such as the color.That upshift was a safety net devised by davien but who knows what other effects it could have.I also know of one time Dakar stopped his gift, he was aware and it came to pass. When the child Feylind and Arithon made the deal to teach them to ply the sea Dakar smelt burning flesh and tar and smoke. That ,I,believe was the foretelling of Feylinds and Tieves death at alestron.


   By Annette on Friday, June 24, 2016 - 01:09 am: Edit Post

No, I do not think a dragon will be contributing any black rose bushes, could be wrong though. I do not see Davien helping with that, and the dragon cannot create new life in harmony with Athera it seems, without a sorcerer as a partner. None of the other Fellowship would help either, since it seems to be a condition for the prophecy to be fulfilled.

So nice bountiful Daon Ramon, with the Sevenir river restored to its old path, a tame Arithon willing to embrace kingship, and likely something happens to prevent it for a third and final time. But still Athera would get her black rose. Arithon is bound to be embracing something other than just Elaira, maybe we are thinking the wrong type of kingship? A Paravian or two is probably going to appear since the compact was between them and the Fellowship. If anything changes they all have to be there to agree to it, including Davien. Davien wanted his freedom from the perils of the compact. I should think who gets what will be dependent on what Arithon chooses to be.


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