First reaction having finished Destiny's Conflict

Janny Wurts Chat Area: Arc 4: Destiny's Conflict - Spoiler Topic: First reaction having finished Destiny's Conflict
   By Dan on Friday, October 06, 2017 - 01:50 pm: Edit Post


Wow well I've just reached the end and well that was intense. For maybe the first 2 fifths of the book it was a very slow burn to the extent I wondered whether we'd get any resolutions at all. But then we seem to cross some sort of unseen line, I think around the Deanfal Necropolis and then jeez one thing after the other.

I've waited 20 years in some cases to read some of those scenes, especially with Ciladis, the Paravians and the resolution of Morriel/Selidie. DC ended up delivering on the promise of the penultimate book. I do wonder though, at what price was the future bought. What will the result of the Seven's actions re Valien be on Arithon and the repurcussions into Song of the Mysteries and does the Black Rose Prophecy have any major significance anymore...

There was just so much in this book, not to mention that some scenes in Curse, FP and PG now hold much more weight or different significance than they first appeared. Will definitely require a second re-read, jointly I think with Initiate's Trail. Will have to post a review on Amazon when I've managed to digest everything!

   By Annette on Friday, October 06, 2017 - 03:37 pm: Edit Post


Definitely the ending was tense, seems both brothers will be having an extended convalescence between books. I think Lirenda had the right of how Arithon is going to react to Valien's death. Black Rose prophecy has not been changed, we are still waiting for it to resolve, but Arithon's likely reaction concerning Valien's death is not going to improve the Fellowship prospects any. I doubt Arithon will give Asandir permission to heal him, or permission to do anything on his behalf any time soon.

I was a bit sad Selidie could not be saved, especially as she had only just managed to get her freedom. I have to study the wording around Arithon's ultimatum on that. I gather if Morriel had taken Arithon's offer, Selidie would have survived. Perhaps Lirenda survived the Waystone's demise, because at the time she was still enslaved?

I suspect Arithon's execution did not match the previous one Jieret and Dakar had seen, despite what Tarens said.

   By Dan on Saturday, October 07, 2017 - 05:24 am: Edit Post

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When I read the execution scenes I did think it may have been the ones Dakar saw in FP I think it was or Jieret, but then again there’s been quite a few real or foretold executions that it’s difficult to know. I’d say either way I think all the prohecised executions have been resolved so far. Can’t remember, it may have been the Biedar Crone who told Arithon he would die twice and get his hearts desire. So I’d say that’s at least one death.

Arithon might not let Asandir intervene, but he might let Ciladis. His rather nonchalent return to greet Sethvir ar Althain Tower in the final triplets was both awesome and suggested it would be him of all the Seven that would deal successfully with Arithon. The revelation one Sorcerer stood surety and choose each of the blood lines and a trait was mirrored in them, Ciladis being for Torbrand, suggests that the relationship between Ciladis and Arithon will reall develop.

I felt the same about Selidie, when she got her freedom back, if only temporarily before her death, I thought she might have hope. I suppose knowing how twisted Morriel became that was a bit of wishful thinking.

   By Annette on Saturday, October 07, 2017 - 07:35 am: Edit Post

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Well the pomp and pageantry seemed a bit missing from the execution, being in such a hurry. Arithon never made a sound when they killed him, but in Jieret's vision he did. The bloodied sword was never returned to the altar, since it was at first left embedded in Arithon, and then later snatched back to try and get rid of Tarens. It was the sword dripping blood on the cloth that Dakar saw in his vision. If Dakar's vision could be altered, Jieret's was more reliable.

And I suspect even though Arithon died, his spirit might not have strayed too far, so maybe not one of the times the Biedar Eldest spoke of, have to wait and see what develops with that. But no one had to intervene to call Arithon's spirit back.

   By Brian Uri! on Monday, October 09, 2017 - 11:10 pm: Edit Post

(no spoilers)

I loved this volume, especially since I've spent some time recently mucking about in Arc III and several of the pivotal callbacks were fresh in my mind. I posted a more complete review on the Amazon product page:

   By Jeff on Wednesday, October 11, 2017 - 01:50 am: Edit Post

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I decided to read at a relaxed pace; a chapter or two at a time. That lasted UNTIL Arithon's capture by the Koriathain. After that, I only stopped when necessary to do other things.
It surprised me that Morriel would leave after Arithon entered the Waystone's matrix.
I'm wondering what Lirenda could discover in Koriani documents that Morriel wouldn't have known; and that would concern the Fellowship.
And Ciladis! I never would have guessed the reason for his long absence.

I was glad to see the outcome with the power source in the Ettinmere Settlement.

The outcome for Valian was heartbreaking. While I'm sure it was Arithon's intent that Valian survive with Fellowship protection after Arithon's passing, I don't see how Arithon would blame the Fellowship for the outcome. The fault was with the Hatchet, the priests and the Koriani...unless the Hatchet was manipulated.

I can hardly wait to read Song of the Mysteries and any new short stories. I wonder how much time will elapse between Sword of the Canon and Song of the Mysteries.

I'll post reviews after I consider how to do so without spoiling.


   By Melanie Trumbull on Wednesday, October 11, 2017 - 02:13 pm: Edit Post

There are no spoilers in this post.
Because I struggle with depression (yes I'm on meds),
it is a happier experience for me
to CHEAT and not endure the emotional roller-coaster
of uninformed first-time readers.

Words cannot express how THANKFUL I am for all these lovely spoiler posts
which I may CHOOSE to read.
I devour them all.

   By Janny Wurts on Wednesday, October 11, 2017 - 05:16 pm: Edit Post

That's good, Melanie, but the posts, even spoilers, could be radically deceptive. If you have any serious questions, you are welcome to e mail me directly, I'll answer - so you don't get your boat rocked, depression is no light matter and I take your concern seriously.

   By Melanie Trumbull on Thursday, October 12, 2017 - 10:51 am: Edit Post

Now, this is an author who cares about her readers. Many thanks, Janny.

   By Janny Wurts on Thursday, October 12, 2017 - 11:23 am: Edit Post

You are totally welcome, always!

   By Melanie Trumbull on Thursday, October 12, 2017 - 06:44 pm: Edit Post

There are no spoilers in this post.
My UK order was just delivered, shipped from
Dunfermline, Fife, Scotland which is currently in the united kingdom but who knows where Scotland will be if there's another refereundum,
anyway, Thank you "AMAZON WAY," wherever you are, from the northeastern US.

I am treating this book like a big old mulberry tree, and crawling around in its growth, browsing on the branches. Which is to say, not starting at the beginning and working forward.

The only reason this works is because these past four months or so have been spent diligently re-reading the nine books that come before, so preparing myself for at least some of the cause-effect sequences that ripen for the harvest in this book.

I cannot imagine encountering this book when one has never read the previous nine.
And yet, there will be readers in precisely that position, who knows how many or how few, but circumstances will force some people to start with the first WoLaS book that comes to hand -- and in some cases it will be Destiny's Conflict, like it or not.

I know how it ends now. No OF COURSE NOT I'm not going to spoil it.

What makes the purchase worthwhile for me -- import, shipping, and all --
is the sense of deep security and fulfillment for a reader like me.
I like knowing that I am in good hands when I read something.
That no corners are going to be cut, and nothing done cheaply or cynically by the author.
So apart from the drama of the tale itself,
I am sighing with relief,
because Janny Wurts has rewarded my trust. Thank you, Janny.
I am going to enjoy reading, and re-reading, this book for a long, long time.

   By Janny Wurts on Thursday, October 12, 2017 - 07:28 pm: Edit Post

You're welcome Melanie, and thanks for sharing your so very original take - for any readers starting anywhere in this series that is not the start, or for any reader starting who 'stalls out' for whatever reason, may there be a reader like you there for them to verify that yes, they can trust they are in good hands. This story is by turns beautiful, sad, blazingly intense, and the full gamut of the spectrum, but NOTHING is done cheap shot, and there are no frivolous shocks - everything matters and all things that matter make a difference.

   By Roisin on Friday, October 13, 2017 - 11:07 am: Edit Post

Melanie - I think I might take a leaf out of your book, next time!


I'm not a fan of horror and gore, and to be honest since the necromancers came into the fray - that hasn't been a favourite theme - yet I understand the entropic aspect of it - as the impact of the Paravians fade, the human as well as environmental costs to Athera bloom like mad bacteria.
I had to close the book for a day or so, after Arithon's visit to the Paravian island - it was a moment of calm in a pretty tumultuous frenzy of drama. That was beautifully written - could really feel the difference of the peace vs. the interfering buzz of a society slipping towards annihilation.
But Valien. Oh. That really got to me. I think perhaps because of the news, and horrific images over the past years about refugee children escaping Syria and not surviving - I read the rest in a quiet shock. I had no heart to work on the puzzles of the various prophecies.
I guess thematically - I'm hoping that Arithon will now be driven to break the hold of the Drakes compact, by restoring the mysteries - and he cannot do it alone - Fferedon 'li will have something to do with that...?? - humanity itself will be pushed to evolve..?? - as the Paravians cannot do it for them.
I'm glad for the break to the next one! Oh my...

   By Melanie Trumbull on Friday, October 13, 2017 - 11:37 am: Edit Post

Yes, Roisin, I know what you mean! About the break, especially;
the truth is,
were both books 10 and 11 right in front of me,
even then I would not want to make myself burst
by rushing through both of them right away.

"Destiny's Conflict" is just so layered and dense.
Especially if the reader has prepared,
and read earlier books in the entire series:
in that case one finds oneself recalling more than one book at a time!

   By Hunter on Friday, October 13, 2017 - 08:55 pm: Edit Post


What an amazing read. So many strands of the earlier books coalescing here.

One item I noted (of many, many!) was Arithon deliberately spilling blood on the soil of Rathain - his realm. Prior to formally sanctioning Valien as his heir to the Fellowship. Historically, Arithon has done everything in his power to avoid giving the Fellowship a sanctioned heir. Although said heir is now gone, with Ciladis returning, would this not then mean the end game of Dakar's Black Rose prophecy of Arithon willingly embracing kingship?

   By Annette on Saturday, October 14, 2017 - 02:14 am: Edit Post

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Well at the end of Destiny's Conflict Arithon is further from accepting kingship than he ever has been. Even Ciladis is offering to be mediator to try and keep the peace when Arithon wakes up. I do not think Arithon will be accepting much from Asandir for a while. Their relationship always was a bit rocky.

Maybe the Fellowship will wipe Arithon's memory, or worse to try and get around the problem. But I doubt they can change Arithon's opinion on kingship that easily, it seems ingrained in him.

And there will still be the problem of what happens when Arithon finds out about Teylia, Arithon spends any time around Dakar he is bound to ferret out that secret.

Arithon would probably have to go through a fair bit more before he is willing to give in and embrace kingship. So something nasty is likely to be waiting for him in Song of the Mysteries.

   By Dan on Saturday, October 14, 2017 - 03:54 am: Edit Post

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I can't decide whether Arithon's spilling of Valien's blood was particularly significant with regards the succession or whether it was to get Sethvir's attention. Remember that even if Arithon was High King, none of the monarchs have ever been able to sanction their own heir, that is the sole purview of the Fellowship. Arithon made the request, and Sethvir accepted for expediency in order to act.

Though that does make me wonder whether this is the first time an heir has ever been declared that is not of the S'Ffalenn blood line, as if all it took was for the heir to declare anyone an heir on the kingdom's soil the bloodline would have petered out long ago. The whole situation is very murky.

As to the Black Rose Prophecy, the phrase 'embraces kingship' has always been very vague and could mean any number of things. It doesn't even have to be kingship of Rathain, and embraces doesn't mean coronation. I wonder whether that resolves in a way people aren't expecting.

I have a wild theory, that with the upstep in Kathtair that Davien and Seshrochziel enacted in IT and with Asandir's mysterious trip over there, Kathtair is being prepared for the new home of humanity as an alternative to the compact in order to leave the continent of Paravia, acknowledged as the heart of the mysteries on Athera, in peace for the Paravians.

   By Annette on Saturday, October 14, 2017 - 01:57 pm: Edit Post

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Arithon has never ever harmed a child, he did not spill Valien's blood, it was his own he spilled to declare Valien his heir. By his blood, his word and by invoking his true name, he declared Valien as heir to Rathain, with full rights to royal legacy bestowed in trust. And Sethvir granted it, star stamped it and sealed it into record. Which meant there were two Princes of Rathain who unknown to Arithon the Fellowship could not protect. One had to die and pass the wheel to fulfill the oath of debt to the Koriathan. Both died before Dakar made it possible for Valien to cross, Elaira did her best to hold on to Arithon's spirit, Taren's protected her, without the three of them acting we would have seen what the alternate more catastrophic plan was.

Arithon never expected the Fellowship to save himself, but did expect them to save an innocent child they could raise as the next heir of Rathain.

Elaira had some thoughts on it.

“No! I beg you, Sethvir, don’t say any more! Never tell me how the outcome from Athir plays through, or infer that your Fellowship might ever sanction an infant sacrifice, even to salvage the compact.”

And Arithon had some thoughts on a similar thing.

Perish the hour he saved his own skin at the expense of an innocent’s fate.

Which is why Ciladis seems to think there is going to be a bit of a storm when Arithon wakes up. Arithon is going to be about as far from embracing kingship he could get. Lirenda had the right of it

“The Seven’s exigent betrayal of a child surely will provoke their reinstated s’Ffalenn scion into a vehement estrangement.”

The Fellowship could always try the tried and true trick of banishing Arithon's memory, but rejection of kingship seems ingrained in him with or without memory of why. It is going to take a lot to get Arithon to give in and embrace kingship. Davien has not made a move, so it has not happened yet.

But that Valien could be made heir to Rathain with full rights to royal legacy even though he was not Arithons blood relation opens up a possibility. Back in CotM Arithon wanted to give Lysaer Alithiel, Asandir's response was.

‘You can never relinquish that blade, except to your own blood heir.’

Yet Valien was not related by blood to Arithon, but Lysaer is.

Twice now Arithon has contested the turn of fates wheel and sung awake the talents of Jieret and Tarens, by offering the template of his own initiate mastery, he made it possible for them to return. And if he does this a third time, for Lysaer? We have seen talents and experience imprinted on another, memories have been gifted.

Given Alithiels alternate name is kingmaker, could Arithon finally manage to give Lysaer Alithiel? Lysaer did always want to be king, envied Arithon's mage trained skill, wanted to be Ath's avatar......

   By Melanie Trumbull on Saturday, October 14, 2017 - 03:46 pm: Edit Post


Most haunting of all the prophecies, speaking for myself, from so many of them: who / where was this one?

The sight of a barren landscape under daylight, and something green sprouting there,
with the sound of bitter weeping and crying.
Am I the only one who remembers that one?
I don't recall any rose blooming, let alone a black one;
but just what I have described.
So a vision, a Seeing, distinct from yet related to
the Black Rose prophecy from Curse of the Mistwraith.

Daenfal, you will observe, is right by the Daon Ramon Barrens, for all that it stands next to the manmade reservoir for the diverted Severnir river.

Certainly what transpired in Daenfal, at the end of Destiny's Conflict, was cause for bitter weeping and crying.

It remains to be seen if the land of Rathain responded to Arithon's, could we call it, capitulation at Daenfal with the briar of the black rose taking root.

   By Annette on Saturday, October 14, 2017 - 04:43 pm: Edit Post

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Green sprouting was Arithon's sight of what was happening on kathtair. So not a prophecy.

Bitter weeping was a vision Dakar had, when trying to find more information on Arithon's execution. We have not had that one yet. Could be Dakar doing the weeping, but it is more likely going to be Lysaer.

Sunwheel became sun, sinking red to a horizon of weather-stripped hills: Daon Ramon. Before the light palled into featureless night, he beheld a new city embedded in tangled black canes of old briar. Somewhere, somebody sobbed in the throes of a gut-wrenching agony… His own voice, perhaps. Dakar had long since lost wits to tell. String after string of prescience reeled through him, a spate grown too fierce to divert by means of sane thought or strong discipline. A city, sheeted in fire and burning; a child, dead in the dust.
-Fugitive Prince

Black rose prophecy was back in Curse of the Mistwraith, another of Dakars, which also has not happened yet. After they eventually tell Arithon the prophecy, maybe he will make a few black roses appear just to see what happens, but I think the actual prophecy probably refers to his lineage, or himself.

When re reading, take note of how many times Janny refers to the thorn in Arithon's nature, roses have thorns. She even threw in the line below this time.

Thorn in the blossom of Torbrand’s descent.

Now what better flower than a black rose? Look at Alithiel, what does her pommel look like? The black above the green, does the green not look like the base of a black rose?

Arithon finally gets a chance to be happy, maybe he will reach his full potential?

The only thing all of Paravia not just Rathain, seemed about to do on Arithon's murder, did not seem a prelude to anything good. It was avoided, he survived. He is still a long way from being safe, or happy.

   By Melanie Trumbull on Saturday, October 14, 2017 - 06:00 pm: Edit Post

Thanks Annette! You found the passage!

You're right, I mis-remembered it.
Weather-stripped Daon Ramon, new city, tangled black canes of old briar, somebody sobbed, gut-wrenching agony.

No there isn't a rose in there, and yet I always wondered if the new city was like the new briar taking root in the barrens. Great!

   By Annette on Sunday, October 15, 2017 - 12:02 am: Edit Post

New home of the brain washed devotees of the light more like. Lysaer likes building things when he is happy, might have a new wife, might build a new city for her. Or maybe he is just the puppet of his own false religion and they build it for him to show off his elemental abilities.

They were up to something at the end of Destiny's Conflict, with that fancy new attire for Lysaer.

The black rose thing will probably come up when Arithon gives in and is willing to accept kingship. Probably after all the conflict is over.

‘Davien the Betrayer shall hear no reason, nor bow to the Law of the Major Balance; neither shall the Fellowship be restored to Seven until the Black Rose grows wild in the vales of Daon Ramon.’

‘The briar will take root on the day that Arithon s’Ffalenn embraces kingship.’
-Curse Of The Mistwraith

Lysaer might help with the conditions necessary for the prophecy, if he builds a new city in Daon Ramon, he will need a good water supply, and an easy way to ship goods. Lysaer might return the Severnir river to its original path.

   By Hellcat on Thursday, November 02, 2017 - 03:32 pm: Edit Post

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Just finished today, I loved it. So good to see all the fruits of all the seeds planted in earlier book.

And now I know what was in Kewar's 7th chamber :-)

   By Helen Bennett on Saturday, March 31, 2018 - 05:04 pm: Edit Post

I have just finished Destiny's Conflict.
After 21 years of reading this wonderful series, I've found this book to be an incredible pay-off. Some events that I've anticipated have come about, but none in a way I could have predicted! It's wonderful... I have laughed and cried, been thrilled and horrified and uplifted.
These books have provided a backdrop to my life, from young adulthood to middle age, and have inspired me time and time again. It's been a phenomenon; I can't overemphasise the impact of this work on my life.
Now that the series is so close to its conclusion, I can't bear the thought of it ending.
Thank you, Janny <3

PS. It's been many years since I've posted here. I used to go by the moniker HJ. I can't seem to log on any more under that username. Not that it matters, really. I just wanted to thank you, Janny :-) xxx

   By Janny Wurts on Sunday, April 01, 2018 - 01:45 pm: Edit Post

Hi Helen, of course I remember you as HJ! Grand to have you back and thanks for the lovely note!

There will be other stuff coming after this series, never fear....

   By Auna on Sunday, April 01, 2018 - 01:55 pm: Edit Post

I sure hope to see more stuff Janny :-) Either related to this series or brand new stuff! I'm not picky! Except for wanting more books. ;)

And hi HJ!

   By Helen Bennett on Sunday, April 08, 2018 - 02:22 am: Edit Post

Hi Janny and Auna :D Lovely to "see" you!

I do intend to visit more often. Life has taken over in recent years, but I'm on sick leave from work at the moment so it's nice to have the time to draw and read and do stuff I don't normally get to do.

I decided a re-read of the whole series is in order, as it's been so long. But my Curse of the Mistwraith copy is falling apart. I've taken to reading Kindle books on my phone now, so I got the Kindle edition of CotM and I'm re-living the first encounter between Arithon and Lysaer. Absolutely brilliant!

xxx <3

   By HJ on Sunday, April 08, 2018 - 02:24 am: Edit Post

:-) Ah! Remembered my password ;)

   By BillBob on Monday, May 07, 2018 - 10:59 pm: Edit Post

Just remembered my login and haven't logged on in years. But just finished the book over the weekend, and was just blown away. Stunning penultimate book. Can't wait for the last one. Thank you.

   By Janny Wurts on Tuesday, May 08, 2018 - 04:11 pm: Edit Post

Thanks for the lovely note, BillBob - if you can post a rating and even a one line review, that would really help the series' visibility so very much!

If you can't or aren't comfortable - that's OK, you made my day!

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