Ciladis, Davien and the Black Rose

Janny Wurts Chat Area: General Discussion: Ciladis, Davien and the Black Rose
   By Ryan Gohl on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 08:04 pm: Edit Post

I've been rereading Curse of the Mistwraith. From reading the books that come after, some of the references in the book make alot more sense.

Pardon me please if this has been brought up before....

A question, assuming the sorcerer bound in sleep on the island with the Riathan Paravian is Ciladis, what do you think will occasion his awakening? Or do you think he is awake already?

What do you think will be the catalyst to have Davien rejoin the Fellowship?

Lastly, what will cause the Black Rose to grow which will fortell the imminent restoration of the Fellowship to the full compliment of seven?

   By Konran on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 - 04:11 pm: Edit Post

I was just reading that part this morning, and I wondered about it, because something hit me for the first time. It says "Davien shall hear no reason, nor bow to the Law of the Major Balance; neither shall the Fellowship be restored to seven until the black rose grows in the wilds of Daon Ramon Barrens." (That's approximate, I don't have it in front of me.) But... is that one thought or two? Is Dakar saying that Davien will only hear reason when the Black Rose grows, or is he saying that he WILL NOT hear reason? That word, neither, is sort of ambiguous.

The cause of the black rose is easy. :-) A few lines later, Sethvir says there is no such rose, and Dakar says that the briar will take root the day Arithon s'Ffalenn embraces kingship.

(I'm so happy to be able to have it to read... I couldn't find the book the other day and I was heartsick to think I might have lost it somewhere at school... luckily someone had just thrown it into my room when I wasn't paying attention. XP)

   By Hannah on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 - 09:35 pm: Edit Post

Konran, that has a big discussion at various points on the board. I haven't the faintest where the link has been. But it's a very fine point, whether Janny is saying one won't happen and the other will happen when the black rose grows. Or if she's saying both will happen when etc. I don't recall the issue ever being conclusively settled.

Very interesting point though. :-)

   By Konran on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 - 11:04 pm: Edit Post

Drat, and here I thought I'd come up with a new revelation. XP lol *lurks off to find that post Hannah is talking about*

   By Neil on Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 03:17 am: Edit Post

Hi Konran, I had a go at this one a while back in December after reading Traitor's Knot and rereading again the posts, I'm even more confused...

Here is my post but you may like to scroll to the top and read the whole thread :-)

   By Trys on Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 04:12 am: Edit Post

I don't recall the issue ever being conclusively settled.Nor is it likely to be resolved until we reach that point in the story... or Janny tells us. The latter being highly unlikely. :-)

   By Hunter on Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 07:12 am: Edit Post

Now that we've seen more of Davien, the question for me is what "reason" is Davien supposed to see?

Removed TK spoiler from NON-spoiler topic.

(Message edited by admin on April 07, 2005)

   By Konran on Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 10:55 am: Edit Post

Thanks for the link, unfortunately I can't read the posts yet. :-( *still waiting...*

   By Annette on Sunday, November 21, 2010 - 03:55 am: Edit Post

Sorry for replying to such an ancient topic, but there is not much for the newer fans to do without reviving some ancient history.

I would presume since the arrival of sunlight did not awaken our sleeping sorcerer that something more is needed. Perhaps Arithon is going to give Ciladis a masterbard's version of reveille, presumably with something like a horn/bugle rather than a lyranthe. Perhaps something suitable is lying around Althain Tower some where, just waiting for the right person to find it and try it out.

   By Sleo on Sunday, November 21, 2010 - 10:18 am: Edit Post

The topics are always fresh for those of us who are addicted to this story. How far along are you in the series? Have you finished what's written and just reviving discussion of old as yet unsolved mysteries? I love it - 'the masterbard's version of reveille.'

   By Janny Wurts on Sunday, November 21, 2010 - 02:21 pm: Edit Post

Hi Annette - welcome, never hesitate to revive an old topic - it is not ancient history at all as this aspect of the story is still unresolved, and quite open to reader speculation.

   By Annette on Thursday, November 25, 2010 - 08:09 pm: Edit Post


The topics are always fresh for those of us who are addicted to this story. How far along are you in the series? Have you finished what's written and just reviving discussion of old as yet unsolved mysteries? I love it - 'the masterbard's version of reveille.'

I have read all the books and the three short stories, but being only a recent convert missed out on nearly all the discussion. The books I have now read multiple times, I am just a bit lazy at typing up some notes for the interesting bits. Janny left us lots of clues as to where the story is going.

I do not believe Davien went through all that trouble just to end up back with the compact and a s'Ffalenn high king, he has something else in mind for Arithon. Likely he is not going to be rejoining the fellowship or bowing to any Law of the Major Balance till almost the end of the series when Arithon claims the destiny Davien has in mind.

Davien rejoins the Fellowship before Arithon succeeds he is bound by the Law of the Major Balance and the terms of the compact, Davien's hands will be tied. Davien described Arithon as his "fit weapon, to champion the cause of humanity". No he is not expecting Arithon to salvage the compact, Davien has already given his opinion on the compact. Assandir has mentioned what the breaking of that compact will result in, the destruction of humanity, by the sorcerers themselves. It is bound to happen.

Davien also mentions in Traitor's Knot that the Fellowship cannot determine Arithon's future, within the Law of the Major Balance (there was a clue explaining a bit more about that but I cannot find it at the moment). So Davien is not going to be tied by the Law of the Major Balance till Arithon's future is set. There seems more than one way to interpret "embraces kingship", the Black Rose prophecy might not be referring to Arithon becoming High King of Rathain.

   By Annette on Friday, November 26, 2010 - 06:17 pm: Edit Post

The Fellowship not being able to determine Arithon's future, within the Law of the Major Balance could also just mean the choice is up to Arithon. Everyone keeps saying he is too fated to determine his future.

   By Sleo on Friday, November 26, 2010 - 07:39 pm: Edit Post

Ultimately I don't think anyone will decide Arithon's fate except him. Just my opinion. Not that he won't be influenced, of course.

   By Annette on Tuesday, April 19, 2011 - 06:38 am: Edit Post


Perhaps Arithon is going to give Ciladis a masterbard's version of reveille, presumably with something like a horn/bugle rather than a lyranthe. Perhaps something suitable is lying around Althain Tower some where, just waiting for the right person to find it and try it out.

Actually I did finally notice Janny drew our attention to a likely looking object. The whistle the Masterbard Elshian carved from a tine of Shehane Althain's right antler. Last seen in the first floor storeroom of Althain tower. It was referred to in Grand Conspiracy pg 18 (mass market version) I wonder if Luhaine put the sunloop back next to it when he finished with it.

Perhaps Ciladis will be woken up after all the excitement has settled down, no wraiths, no curse driven wars, nothing to get him too worried.

   By Annette on Tuesday, July 12, 2011 - 08:59 am: Edit Post

Actually I thought about this and there is a mention in Traitor's Knot that might give a clue as to why Ciladis might be still sleeping. I thought I read it somewhere, but could never find it.


'The question beckons, Sethvir, does it not? Can you say in the depths of your tormented dreams you have not pursued the temptation? To just walk away? Cross Fate's Wheel and be done? Leave Athera's fate to fall or to languish - why not let the flow of the mysteries fail? Death is the mask that drives the illusion. Why not let the darkness unveil its own light, and resurrect its next hope of salvation?'
'Ciladis could not,' Sethvir whispered. Anemone pale in the thin flood of starlight, he kept up his laboured speech. 'After one armageddon and its cost of deliverance in slaughter, I believe he would finally go mad.'

Traitor's Knot pg 381 (UK paperback)

If the Paravians are protecting Ciladis from the bloodshed yet to come, he would probably not be woken till after the conflict part of Destiny's Conflict is over. Either that or he gets woken up and they leave him there out of harms way till things settle down.

   By Ryan Gohl on Tuesday, July 19, 2011 - 01:21 am: Edit Post

Interesting repsonses. I just happened to swing by and see a thread I started 6 years ago got revived, how fun!

I pop in and out often, but I haven't posted in a long while.

Reading to current, I still have no idea what the answer may be. That Ciladis is being sheltered from mass slaughter makes sense, given that his gnetle nature and focus on healing has been in the forefront often enough.

Davien, he has no care for the fellowship, more to the point in how they are bound in their actions. The individuals in the fellowship, I am fairly certain he has a good regard of them in general, but he will not be bound to act against his own judgment. How that might be resolved? Perhaps a change in the terms of the compact, or a dissolution of the compact and a new one formed?

As for Arithon, embracing kingship could mean one of his bloodline taking it perhaps, and that he sanctions it? I'm just tossing random thoughts out is all.

   By AJP on Monday, November 28, 2011 - 01:43 am: Edit Post

I believe the 'armageddon' they are referring to is likely the one of the Fellowhip's past... The destruction of starfaring humanity only briefly mentioned in the subtext of the series, which I suspect the Fellowship was highly involved in... and from which they were redeemed through the drake's dreams.

I was thinking it may be as simple as the fact that Ciladis will set foot on Athera again with the first Pavarian(s) to return. I'm not sure why none have yet returned, excluding the occasional episode here and there where they respond to Arithon's engagement of the higher mysteries, but I'm thinking he'll be right by their side when they do....


   By Annette on Monday, November 28, 2011 - 07:01 am: Edit Post

Spoiler, Spoiler, Spoiler, Spoiler.....
In the last paragraph.

I agree the Armageddon refereed to is the destruction of the previous human civilisation. What they are saying is Ciladis's sanity would not survive a similar thing happening again. The humans break the compact, the drake binding will force the Sorcerer's to destroy humanity again. The Paravians are protecting him, he is still on Athera, the island he is on was one of the first to see sunlight when the Mistwraith was contained. The Armageddon quote is just giving a possible reason why Ciladis is being protected.

The Dragons drew/dreamed the Fellowship to Athera, but it was their encounter with the Paravians that led to their redemption. We only need look at the changes in Arithon after encountering the Paravians, to understand how Ciladis might have changed. Arithon seems to be made of steel, he is the one being tempered to endure no matter what, Ciladis it seems is not made to endure such conflict. Of the Fellowship, Ciladis seems to have been closest to the Paravians, maybe that is why he changed so much.

Spoiler, Spoiler, Spoiler, Spoiler.....

The bit about the darkness unveiling its own light, and resurrecting its next hope of salvation always grabbed my attention there, my imagination came up with all sorts of ideas. Arithon seems is to be Mother Dark's Light, and he is going to have to return from a certain execution. Arithon has already produced numerous miracles to save humanity and Athera, still they want to butcher him, he returns from the dead, they will just kill him again. So what is going to change that? Take the quoted conversation literally and put them in the dark with no sun they will see Lysaer is a false light quick enough and start praying to Ath to save them. Strangely enough Janny mentioned a way that could be done in Initiate's Trial. The wardspell used to seperate the free wraiths. I would still rather some divine justice fall on them though, than it just be a sorcerer's plan. Could the Fellowship even delay like that in the hope of humanity turning over a new leaf. Or maybe the mysteries do die and they simply give up and do nothing. Arithon and those Mysteries are I believe closely connected. Lose Arithon they might lose more than just Rathain's last Prince. Kill Arithon and I believe Lysaer's fanatics break the compact. And Davien I suspect knows quite a bit about Arithon's future, which is why he has done what he has, and why he will wait for Arithon to prove him right before rejoining the Fellowship.

Arithon for some mad reason breaks into Rockfell and banishes the Mistraith, Traithe can be healed.

Arithon finds a way to free Lysaer from the curse, survive his own execution and the possible consequences of the compact being broken, it should be safe for Ciladis to return.

Arithon claims the destiny Davien seems to know about, Davien rejoins the Fellowship. I do have an idea what Davien is hoping for.

   By Sleo on Monday, November 28, 2011 - 10:12 am: Edit Post

Hey, I like your thinking, Annette. :-)

   By Annette on Monday, November 28, 2011 - 03:40 pm: Edit Post

Spoilers, spoilers, spoilers, spoilers...

Actually I forgot a few things, before Davien can get what he wants those horrors down in Mirthlvain's swamp have to be transmuted/freed as well. For some reason I always thought Janny was priming us for an encounter between Arithon and some cierlan-ankeshed venom, we were always told how painful it was, but Janny has not given us a victim yet. I thought one of Morriels visions where Arithon was imprisoned might have taken place in Meth Isle's bleak dungeon, but that seems not to have worked out. Yet Janny made sure we knew there was a dungeon at Meth Isle and that new breeds of dangerous mutations were still sometimes kept imprisoned at Meth Isle. Janny usually seems to have a reason for including such details. Still have my suspicions that Arithon might come to a closer understanding of Meth snakes in a painful way.

Also there is the Khadrim, the Fellowship seem to have been satisfied just locking them up in the Sorcerer's preserve, but they are still a danger. Only the offspring of the Methuri were mentioned as the last threat to be cleared before humanity arrived on Athera though, so presumably they are the last of the drake spawn that needs to be cleared.

I think Arithon would like to keep the iyats, they seem very useful, his very own little task force of helpers.

And of course necromancy, Koriani and Lysaer and his fanatical followers are the human problems that are now a threat to Athera's future. The Fellowship does not seem to be doing very well at solving those problems either. We already know Arithon is set to save Lysaer, Morriel seems to have thought Arithon is going to be the cause of her downfall, and Arithon already dealt with one lot of necromancers, maybe he ends up with the rest of them to deal with as well. After all are they not problems caused by mortals, so maybe a mortal has to come up with the solution as well. Either Arithon or Lysaer seem to be the only mortals likely to take on necromancers, unless Dakar is volunteering to be next.

For Davien to rejoin the fellowship, all those threats would likely have to be dealt with first. No one is likely to be appearing to offer Arithon any alternatives to the compact while there are still conflicts that threaten Athera and her mysteries. So it would seem Janny is going to be busy if we are to get a conclusion to the arc in the next book. I do not think she would leave any of these problems to run into Song of the Mysteries.

   By William Barnes on Tuesday, December 30, 2014 - 08:36 pm: Edit Post

The way the Blackrose prophesy is worded makes me wonder if the fellowship being restored to seven involves Davien at all. Maybe another is destined to take his place.

   By Annette on Friday, January 02, 2015 - 05:52 am: Edit Post

Davien cannot be replaced by anyone else. I am sure Janny gave an answer some where on why there can be no new Fellowship Sorcerers, but cannot find it so will give my interpretation. But you can ask Janny directly in a post and she will explain why better.

The Fellowship of seven were a Fellowship before they were brought to Athera, their history and how they feel about that is what made them a fellowship and cannot be replicated. It was that perception of themselves after what happened in the past that drew them to the summons sent by the dragons who dreamed them into Athera.

The power the dragons bestowed on them is not transferable, nor are the responsibilities they freely accepted. They accepted redemption from the Paravians and were renamed, the colours they wear are an indication of who they are, and they are a matched set. All 7 are needed.

Later when Humanity arrived, they helped draw up the compact and accepted responsibility for it.

None of that history, experience, power, binding or oversight of the compact can be transferred to any one else so there will never be any new members of the Fellowship. There will never be more than 7 members of the Fellowship and at full strength it will always be the same 7.

So Davien is eventually going to bow to the Law of the Major Balance and agree to rejoin. Ciladis will eventually awake, and Traithe will be restored.

Probably all in the next book.

   By Annette on Friday, January 02, 2015 - 05:08 pm: Edit Post

Something I have always wondered about that prophecy, the future appearance of the black rose is connected with Arithon. Being willing to embrace kingship does not necessarily mean he will be crowned, twice he has volunteered so far and twice something prevented it. Three seems to be the magical number.

How many of Athera's royals got planted in a rose garden when sanctioned? Was it just the s'Ffalenn Prince's, or did all royals get planted for their attunement to earth. Were there roses in that location before Etarra was built? The site seems of some significance, and Etarra has not been there all the time. And why would this black rose growing wild mean anything to Davien?

Maybe the black rose growing wild on Daon Ramon, is also symbolic of Arithon's heirs being free, to be what ever they want to be? Arithon would be the last s'Ffalenn prince?

   By Hunter on Sunday, January 04, 2015 - 05:09 pm: Edit Post

"So Davien is eventually going to bow to the Law of the Major Balance and agree to rejoin. Ciladis will eventually awake, and Traithe will be restored.

Probably all in the next book."

Aaah, only if was all so easy as that..!!! Davien agreeing to rejoin the Fellowship is a dangerous assumption. The exact wording "neither shall the Fellowship be restored to Seven" - given the personalities, it is just as likely that Asander, Sethvir and co. will need to concede that Davien was right in the first place and they rejoin him than the other way around.

Traithe restored would intimate there is a way to unscramble the Mistwraith omelette and redeem the lost souls.

   By Annette on Monday, January 05, 2015 - 03:41 am: Edit Post

Well Arithon has been practicing his naming and redeeming of lost souls, he just needs to gain the ability to do a multitude all at once. He managed to take out all the Gray Kralovir as one, maybe there is a way the Mistwraith entities are joined that is similar?

It is the Fellowship of Seven, whether 6 agree Davien's plan worked, or whether Davien agrees he should rejoin the other 6, still ends up seven.

Davien did not build all those strange, trials and wonders on a whim, and Arithon claiming kingship of Rathain is not his plan. How could the Fellowship be released from the peril of the compact, Athera's Mysteries be protected, and humanity actually survive? Davien has a plan, he was never really happy with the compact and the risks it entailed the alternate plan seems to depend on Arithon. And while these tempering experiences might eventually allow Arithon the wish of his heart, I am doubtful Davien is doing it for just that.

That stair on Rockfell Peak was one of Davien's creations, as was the shaft used to imprison the Mistwraith, now who do you suppose is going to be taking on that trial? Why on earth would Arithon even attempt it and risk letting the Mistwraith free?

   By Clansman on Monday, January 05, 2015 - 08:18 am: Edit Post

I don't think Davien ever deviated from the Law of the Major Balance. In fact, that remains a point of unity between him and the rest of the Fellowship. Davien, however, disliked the Compact from its outset, seeing it as inherently unstable (that it lasted for several thousand years before it was dismantled may belie that belief, however...). It was his eventual upset of the Compact/Charter, based in his own understanding/interpretation of the meaning of the Law of the Major Balance, that the Compact/Charter was challenged.

Anyone who assumes that the Five Kingdoms will be restored has not been paying attention. Janny delights in turning our assumptions on their heads, and we will have that "d'oh!" moment when the Big Secret is revealed, and our collective hand-slap to our foreheads will be heard around the world. The solution to Athera's problems will likely have been lying in front of us for the better part of the last two decades, and all of us will have failed to see it.

I have long since given up on speculating, as I am always wrong. It was fun, though.

   By Annette on Tuesday, January 06, 2015 - 07:43 pm: Edit Post

Well the compact has lasted 5923 years at last count and although a bit on the wobbly side is still standing. If Havish falls, it would not be the first time all 5 kingdoms were without a Fellowship crowned king.

I would think Lysaer's work in eventually combining all the town born under his rule goes a fair way towards Paravia becoming one kingdom.

Arithon seems to be working on having ties to the clans in all 5 kingdoms, although he seems to prefer ties of friendship and brotherhood, rather than oath sworn allegiance.

So combine the two groups together and 5 kingdoms might yet become one. The clans would never follow Lysaer, the townborn would not follow Arithon. Daliana and any children she has with Lysaer might do for both groups. We will have to wait and see.

   By Julie on Friday, January 09, 2015 - 01:19 pm: Edit Post

Arithon's acceptance of kingship will give him a different channel to the mysteries (at least in Rathain). Another tool with which to unravel the Mistwraith whether or not charter law regarding succession to the thrones is restored.

Annette- why do you assume Daliana and Lysaer will wed?

   By Annette on Friday, January 09, 2015 - 08:55 pm: Edit Post

You think Lysaer could love Daliana, and not want to make her his queen? He will marry and probably go off and build some new city some where. A nice central location, probably in the heart of Rathain.

Lysaer seems to like building things when happy, and it has been a long time since he was happy.

And Arithon's attitude to his crowning has not changed last we saw him. He remembers how he was betrayed and sold out, his attitude towards kingship (and probably Asandir) is not going to improve. We caught a bit of that in one of the early peeks at Destiny's Conflict. I should think Arithon would want peace before he was willing to embrace kingship.

   By Julie on Saturday, January 10, 2015 - 11:56 am: Edit Post


Daliana is oath sworn to the land, becoming queen to an unsanctioned king would be in violation of the charter she swore to uphold. Now IF Lysaer is redeemed, forgiven by the paravians, and the mistwraith conquered, I can see that path open to them.
Maybe Janny can clarify this- have there been other royal/caithdein romantic unions besides the one from which Dari was made?
Lysaer's character is not stagnant however much he is a product of his upbringing and geas infected. He did not build Avenor because he was happy- he firmly believed in his mission and right to rule. As far as Rathain, it sounds like he built a stable political environment in which both towns and clans prospered during his 250 years as Lord Mayor of Etarra. Daliana may steer him back there if the True Sect has not taken over.
I like to think that there will be clandestine channels open between the Caithdien of Tysan and Daliana. Lysaer needs different allies to withstand the True Sect and the Fellowship has already taken a more active role in helping Daliana than they did with Sulfen Evand.

Arithon was already willing to assume the kingship if it would bring peace. In the snippet we saw, Arithon still did not have a good deal of his memories. He may change his mind given the full range of information.

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