Fellowship Sorcerers and initiate knowledge

Janny Wurts Chat Area: General Discussion: Fellowship Sorcerers and initiate knowledge
   By George on Monday, November 16, 2009 - 12:08 am: Edit Post

I was doing a re-read of Curse of the Mistwraith and a funny line popped out when I was reading the scene about Asandir, Kharadmon and Dakar at Rock Fell.

Dakar makes the observation that Asandir incanted in a language that had never been heard on Athera. Now, we know that the Fellowship of Seven were scientists in a former life (before they were called by the Drakes).

My question are as follows (and please help Janny, if it won't cause any spoilers):

Did the Fellowship of Seven have Initiate Awareness prior to their binding to the Drakes or was this something that they acquired as a result of the Drakes' intervention?

If the Initiate Awareness was something that was acquired through the Drakes, then how did Asandir come to acquire the knowledge of another language which was to be used for grand conjury?

If the questions seem obsure, please forgive me, but there is so little we know of the F7 that it really got me thinking.

   By Jeff on Monday, November 16, 2009 - 01:50 pm: Edit Post

That's an interesting observation.

That gets me to wondering about the difference in the passage of time (length of days & years) between worlds. How long is 10000 years on Athera compared with wherever the SEVEN came from?

Perhaps the language is a scientific jargon representing knowledge that was rendered useless by the physical laws specific to Athera... until Asandir perceived a particular application that applied to his then present circumstances.

Another possibility is a language that he had known distinct from the common language used by the SEVEN.

I wonder how far off I am in my guesses... :-)

   By Neil on Wednesday, November 18, 2009 - 08:23 am: Edit Post

I think the fellowship were called for their destructive skills. They were perceived by the drakes as "masters of destruction"...I forget exactly? This is pretty "rich" coming from drakes that can dream new realities...but then the drakes had stopped true dreaming at that point for some reason? Despair? They lost their young to drakespawn(not sure?) attacks?

I believe the drakes taught the F7. There is a reflection by someone that the F7 would have been driven mad if they had met the paravians without the drake magic?

Whether this is the same as initiate awareness or the distinctions blur for non-humans. The F7 are no longer truly human I'd say...

Drakes came from athera but went to other planets it seems they might have learnt other languages? But I think that Moriel also is mentionned as using non-atheran language so I would guess an ancient human language not appropriate to the paravian paradigms? Entrapment in Rockfell is presumably a compromise between paravian law of major balance and drake decisions to save thenmselves and paravian culture. Certain drakespawn are or have been destroyed on principle?

   By Janny Wurts on Wednesday, November 18, 2009 - 10:23 am: Edit Post

I am not ignoring the questions set to me.

Trying to decide what would spoil, and what would not...and juggling the time to write, between a very hectic week.

Back soon - keep speculating!

   By George on Wednesday, November 18, 2009 - 08:56 pm: Edit Post

I think we know that there are various forms of initiate knowledge on Athera. So it's not as if that when humans came to Athera, they had no initiate knowledge, e.g Koriani, Biedar and the various necromancer cults.

We also know that Athera, because of its make-up is a prime planet for initiate awareness because of the "vibration" of the planet (or something like that, I read somewhere something written by Janny which alluded to this), thus why the Koriani stayed on Athera and did not go through the worldsend gates.

Human knowledge pre-dates Athera. One wonders at the age, extent and breadth of the human knoweldge. We know that Marak is an experiment gone wrong, where initiate awareness is tied to machinery. Is it possible that the F7 had initiate awareness prior to Athera and tried something similar to what had occurred on Marak?

   By Technetus on Sunday, November 22, 2009 - 09:45 am: Edit Post

Jeff: consider also that the expression we would use -- "the 11th hour" -- is said as "the ninth hour" on Athera.

The first two thoughts to my mind there are that either Athera has a twenty hour planetary rotation period... or Atheran time is metric. :-)

(Astronomy was never my focus, but it seems to me that a twenty hour day cycle doesn't necessarily mean the years are shorter or longer compared to ours, as the time it takes Athera to orbit its sun should determine the year length, independent of the orb spin speed...)

   By Neil on Sunday, November 22, 2009 - 05:48 pm: Edit Post

i seem to recall Janny saying that Athera was slightly smaller but had a more dense core(?) than Earth.

Still it is only a story and a year of "time" helps to put a framework around changes that occur in the environment and to the people not to mention those characters that actually get to grow old :-)

   By Benjamin James on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 10:41 am: Edit Post

i had always considered the F7 to have their powers before they were called to Athera. But being bound by the law of the major balance and their pact with the paravians obviously stops them from doing certain things that they ordinarily had done in the past (masters of destruction quote, hinting that they had used their power to the fullest of its potential for causing destruction). I shall have to re-read certain sections but the phrasing of some of the paragraphs hinting to the past of the f7 suggested to me that there magecraft predated their arrival on Athera. I shall have to check. A very interesting observation though. :-)

   By Trys on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 12:30 pm: Edit Post


You should read Janny's short story "Sundering Star" which was published in Under Cover of Darkness. It may shed some light on your musings.


   By Benjamin James on Tuesday, December 08, 2009 - 06:06 am: Edit Post

Ordered it just now :-) Will read as soon as i get it!

   By Benjamin James on Monday, January 04, 2010 - 08:58 am: Edit Post

My book still hasn't arrived yet!

A liitle thing I noticed just after reading Grand Conspiracy again. Was browsing through the glossary (As you do), and came across the entry for Cianor Sunlord and thought it have relevant pertinence to the discussion on whether the seven had initate awareness prior to arrival on Athera.

"...Crippled but alive, he was on hand at the arrival of the Fellowship of Seven. Healed by the Sorcerers; appointed Keeper of Records in 902"

What is hard to determine is the timescale involved with it all. As in, did the f7 heal him literally upon arrival on Athera? If so could this point to them having that ability prior to arriving?
Would love to hear your thoughts!

   By Neil on Saturday, January 09, 2010 - 04:53 pm: Edit Post


Ah. But when was Cianor healed? Perhaps 901 or 902? Or does the semi-colon perhaps separate the healing and appointment by even centuries?

My feeling is that the F7 arrived as engineers/scientists, reliant on technology. The drakes gave them the teaching to be "effective" on Athera (i.e. "magic") and this was outside the safe limits or harmonic examples seen within paravian culture/paradigm where necessary. But whenever possible the F7 respect the paravian example except where paravian existence on Athera is threatened. The end justifying the means perhaps in drake opinion(?) The F7 themselves are "bound" to to this; not freewill. Just my guess although this goes against davien's chat to arithon where he is of the opinion where the end never justifies the means (the author's opinion also I wonder?)


   By DarthJazy on Wednesday, February 10, 2010 - 11:35 am: Edit Post

From what i understand from the books F7 were masters of destruction with mostly science where science and magic become one. their knowledge of what we call science was so advanced adding magic or mastering magic to make them co exist would not be difficult. my two cents.

   By Jeff on Monday, June 13, 2011 - 11:13 am: Edit Post

Without more information related to the great drakes' binding, it's hard to determine just how much control they had of their power at first.

Did they have interstellar travel time to adapt?

If they had a learning curve (as Sethvir did with the earthlink and wardship of Althain Tower), I speculate that Ciladis might have been the primary sorcerer involved in healing Cianor as that seems to be Ciladis' area of natural gift.

   By Sleo on Monday, June 13, 2011 - 12:07 pm: Edit Post

Interesting discussion. Can't wait to reread these books in prep for release of Initiate's Trial.

Re: healing of Cianor - healing is hardly a 'magical' property as the F7 as we know from Sundering Star were from a culture far advanced scientifically. Perhaps Cianor was healed using good old fashioned medicine? Just to throw a kink in things.

I think some of the questions about the drakes are answered in Ships when Arithon goes to visit the s'Bransians after the black powder episode. There's a very enlightening passage there about why the drakes called the F7 to Athera - something to do with those awful fire breathing birds whose name escapes me - the ones who nearly killed Kevor.

   By Trys on Monday, June 13, 2011 - 02:40 pm: Edit Post


   By Jeff on Thursday, June 16, 2011 - 09:38 am: Edit Post

As a followup from my post on Monday, June 13, 2011 - 11:13 am:

In Ships of Merior, in the chapter titled "Trust",
Asandir relates to the brothers s'Brydion that the Seven's "engine" was "plucked from its transit" through deep space
and the "drake's [sic] desperate need hurled it earthward" to the resulting Crater Lake.

That indicates a quick arrival.


Janny, in the quote noted above, is "drake's" a publishing typo from the first US edition?

Should it be "drakes' desperate need" or "drake's desperate need"?
I'm wondering if that's an important distinction.

As always, thank you.

   By Jeff on Thursday, June 16, 2011 - 12:50 pm: Edit Post

Regarding Cianor's healing:
Perhaps I'm considering the Paravians' etheric characteristics out of balance with their semi-mortal physical beings.

I was thinking that Cianor (and perhaps others) may have needed emergency physical healing, but specialized to their etheric makeup, and allowing for overload on their arcane resources
[similar to backlash from tienelle scrying or Lysaer exercising his gift beyond a safe point].

   By Janny Wurts on Thursday, June 16, 2011 - 04:44 pm: Edit Post

The typo - drake's or drakes' - depends if it was a communal dreaming; or one dragon, appointed to DO the dreaming for the community that decided to create/spin this option into play - the usage may or may not be a typo...the conclave of Paravians and dragons that opted to DO something occurred at Corith, and was referenced at the opening of Fugitive Prince...

As for Cianor Sunlord and Cianor Moonlord, a careful combing of the glossaries SHOULD shed a little more light on this. Past that, we're into definite authorial duct tape territory.


The series will reveal, in due time.

   By Jeff on Friday, June 17, 2011 - 01:37 am: Edit Post

I was just wondering if there might be a "not a word wasted" hidden meaning to ferret out. I had long assumed that the active dreaming was a combined effort by all of the great drakes involved.

Re-reading the reference in Fugitive Prince, I realized that I completely overlooked the presence and involvement of the Paravian races in the council at Corith. After 9 months of a detailed series re-read, I realize I'm still partly blinded by preconceived notions---and have more to discover.


The speculation about Cianor's healing by the Sorcerers was actually a follow-on from Sleo's post on June 13.
Of course, extra information from the 'Keeper of the Great Myster(ies)' would have been a nice side bonus.
No such luck!

Still, Janny, thanks for noting a distinction between Sunlord and Moonlord. That will keep me busy for a while.

   By Izzy on Friday, June 17, 2011 - 02:30 am: Edit Post

Wasn't the council at Corith when the compact was made in order for humanity to find shelter on Athera? ie/ It signified the beginning of the THIRD age.

As to the F7... Don't forget that this website has a FAQ!! In the case of the F7...

FAQ Subject - The Fellowship of Seven

The entire FAQ is linked under the Author Notes menu option.



   By Annette on Friday, June 17, 2011 - 02:39 am: Edit Post

Actually I thought Davien gave away who Cianor Moonlord was and I have my suspicions about Cianor Sunlord. I was completely not suspicious in the least till I finally worked out what Davien meant, now I look at Paravians in an entirely different way.

Janny was Cianor appointed keeper of the records in 902 first age or second age? The way how it is written it seems like the first age, but I thought the second age started with the arrival of the Sorcerers and they arrived 827 first age.

Another time-line question was Ithamon being 18,000 years old. It does not seem to add up if the sorcerers have been here 10,000 years and there were only 827 years in the first age. Have the Sorcerers been on Athera longer (longer second age), or is Ithamon not quite as ancient as that?

   By Janny Wurts on Friday, June 17, 2011 - 09:20 am: Edit Post

Jeff - for direct info, YOU HAVE TO ASK ME DIRECTLY. Otherwise, it's reader speculation and I leave that to itself - part of the fun...the facts in reader posts may, or may not, be correct, or they may (or may not) be colored by what they preconceived, or thought they remembered.

It's a BIG set of books. ;)

Part of the thrill is in the re-encounter/revisions of opinion as notions get stood on their head, or smashed outright - so I tend not to interfere with that.

You referenced me by NAME, asking, about the typo - I tossed in the other under the same blanket.

I will NOT answer if it impacts the forthcoming story.

so there be the 'ground rules' -- use em wisely. :-)

   By Annette on Saturday, June 18, 2011 - 09:26 pm: Edit Post

Apologies Janny, I had not realised with the latest reprints you had changed the dates around, I will put the rest in the typos thread.

I must say moving Alithiel's forging to the second age makes me rethink a few things, since someone seems to be doing a bit of moonlighting on the side. I had wondered if that could be done, seems I have my answer. :-)

   By Jeff on Saturday, June 18, 2011 - 11:03 pm: Edit Post

Hi, Janny.

I hope I didn't inadvertently give offense.
My "...no such luck!" probably should have had a :-) behind it. It was meant in a humorous sense like with readers asking for snippets.
I respect the ;X.

I'll be sure to post direct questions separately from other posts.

Your time and sharing are appreciated.


Hi, Izzy.

Thanks for the reminder about the FAQ. There's a lot there that I missed, including about the current thread. I'll finish reading/reviewing that before asking any more questions.

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