Archive through December 17, 2004

Janny Wurts Chat Area: Arc 3: Alliance of Light: Fugitive Prince, Grand Conspiracy; Peril's Gate & Traitor's Knot: Traitors Knot Discussions: Spoiler Topics: Notes and thoughts while reading the book: Archive through December 17, 2004
   By Hellcat on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 06:20 am: Edit Post

Just finished Chapter set 3. Incoherent thoughts so far:

First sentence of the timeline is very confusing. It needs splitting, plus a mention of the five centuries fountain.

Necromancers: WHAT surprises is this plotline going to pull? Will it re-forge Lysaer's self awareness and remove his hatred of magecraft, or the reverse? Too much speculation. Cerebeld in communion with the necromancers was just urrrrrghhhhhhhh! This is really intriguing me at the moment, there are so many possibilities from here....

Arithon: Now he must learn to cope with the expanded awareness of a Sourceror. The awkening of his gift of farsight to full potential is interesting.

Feylind: CHILDREN!!!!! Blimey!

Jensya: Her and Arithon together is going to be firestorm. Mostly I feel sorry for her, partly I want to smack her and tell her to grow up! Would Jieret really sacrifice himself if it wasn't necessary? It is a shame she didn't not witness the Centaur and realise that by the time Jiret died he had found a peace and a greatness beyond anything he had known before.


   By Hellcat on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 08:35 am: Edit Post

splouieoeopehkjaakjlsaklsdsjkjkshfdhfkj Spoilers Chapter set 4;

P 103 of the Trade Paperback:


Lysear brooded less on Shadow and Sourcery and more on the treason that stalked his state hall at Avenor

Blimey. I think this could be the begining of the redemption of Lysaer. Since the curse is boun to Lysaer by his gift of justice I'm not sure it would be able to conteract any just act Lysaer takes to remove the injustice.

   By Anna Kanowski on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 06:44 pm: Edit Post

Hi I finished reading TK last night. WOW!


the necromancy scene near the end was HARROWING to read I found myself scanning rather than reading ever word in order to disassociate myself and not be absolutely drained and wrecked!
Janny, if I didn't love you so much I'd hate you!

Actually I'd really appreciate some input/analysis from other readers. With the whole series I have only read each book once. I think it is because it does have such an IMPACT. This is against my normal habit of rereading books. there are just so many of those harrowing scenes going back to tal quorin (sp) and the havens etc.
Anyway a by-product of that is I don't have as exact a recall of some details.
With regard to the background of the Fellowship of Seven and Davien's dispute with them I have a general sense of where they stand but it sort of sits just out of reach in my mind so that if I try to focus on it it disappears. It is just enough to keep me on track while reading and try to assimilate the new tidbits on that topic.
So anyway what I'm requesting is that another reader please summarise the stance of Davien versus the F7 on the compact etc. PLEASE.
Thanks in advance

   By skeoke on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 09:15 pm: Edit Post

Anna ~

TK gives a much better idea of D vs F6 than all the rest put together.


Especially the scene between himself and Sethvir. Before we just had hints, glimmers and suppositions.

   By Hunter on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 11:09 pm: Edit Post


Anna - I found Braggen's return to the clans at Halythwood created the most emotional tumoil in me. The first part of TK was really part of the end of PG in a world where books could have 5000 pages and be bound properly. So with my recent re-read of PG then reading TK, this flowed and the overflow of emotion as Braggen is forced to look after Arithon when Jieret sacrifices himself was almost overwhelming.

Braggen is a man come back to explain that his Lord had died in his place. What could Braggen say or do to Feithin, Jeynsa or the clans that might explain or absolve anything? Very disturbing.

With Davien's discussion with Sethvir, I can only surmise that the Fellowship of six gave Davien so much room because the F6 (well Sethvir and Asandir at least) may have admitted to themselves that perhaps Davien had been right all along. Luhaine and Kharadmon don't seem to be as initimately involved in this as Sethvir and Asandir..

   By Hellcat on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 04:52 am: Edit Post

Being very good!!! Not reading Spoliers until finshed the book!!!

End of Chapter set 8:

MAY DHARKARON AVENGER'S HORSES RAIN FLAMING PISS ON LYSEAR S'ILLLESID. Sorry had to use DaKar's curse there. There is no obvious connection between Arithon and the necromancers. Lysear has created that connection, he must have all evil tied together in a nice neat fashion. If anything the Cabal has a connection to Lysear and not Arithon. Streets of Avenore are safe, pah! I fear for Sulfin Evend I can see his death for treason.

Love the frozen Iyats. V useful. And what happened to the Waystone! Morriel/Selide has become obessed with Arithon's capture above and beyond any idea of charity.


PS Anyone else notice there are living drakes?

   By Trys on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 05:30 am: Edit Post



he must have all evil tied together in a nice neat fashion

Given that Lysaer grew up in an environment where his father despised his mother and her father is it any wonder that Lysaer has issues with mages and magecraft. Desh-thiere would know this so what better focal point to use to push Lysaer in directions that might achieve the Curse's end.


   By Hunter on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 08:55 am: Edit Post


I noticed the mention of living drakes. But given they are largely outside of normal linear time.. what does death really mean to them?

Regarding the necromancers - how can Lysaer be held responsible for them when, according to Davien, they came with the refugees at the start of the third age? What Lysaer did was give them a forum, unbeknownst to him, to grab the control they want and the stepping stone to break the compact.

The mistwraith's curse is to set Lysaer against Arithon because their paired talents is what confined the mistwraith in the first place, so it assumes by ensuring they are never working in concert again, that it will be safe when (not if!) it escapes from Kewar. Any thoughts on whether Arithon would need Lysaer? If he can freeze iyats, why not the free wraiths?

One other minor point - only baddies died in this book. Mostly we're used to good and misguided people dying in droves. Here the major casualties were the already dead..

So - finale of SF? Fionn Areth in Alestron as it burns being the focus for Lysaer's warhost...

   By Hellcat on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 10:10 am: Edit Post

balan n an n na nann a n n anna Spoilers etccccccccc


Not entirely sure how much of this is the Curse working. Rosin's posts in the "Lysaer and sympathy left for him" thread express how I see Lysear coherently. He comes so close to a change of mind only to have what I presume is the Curse intervene. This might be another example of the Curse at work. or it might be Lysears own shortcommings.

We see in Curse how diffcult Lysaer finds it to reconcile the need to provide justice to both the clans and the townsmen of Ettara. After the destruction of Avenor's Cabel Lysaer finds it is easier for him to deal with One Big Evil with Arithon at its head rather than to admit he has to defend his populace aganist something he doesn't understand how to deal with and with those he does not control (the f7 and existing talent) acting as a defence.

He is too proud to stop his course, re-evalate if the F7 and Ath's Adepts are evil. Instead he MUST (and this is where I can see the curse's influence) prove that Arithon is behind Kevor and Ellaine's disapearence and thus behind the Cabal


On a different note. Did anyone else get reminded of the shape-changers in TRHC when the corpses became re-animated.

   By Róisín on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 11:24 am: Edit Post

I have closed my eyes whilst opening this thread ... I am not reading one iota of the above posts... but oh my WORD is it tempting!!!! Some of you are reading the book as I type!!! It's just too, too cruel a world. :-)

   By Annette on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 01:18 pm: Edit Post



Question. This involves the Child of Prophecy short story as well. If Arithon and Lysaer are directly related to the King of Shand (or did I misread that part?) wouldn't that mean that either of them could be granted the High Kingship of Shand? Or did I totally misunderstand? And now in TK where Melhalla is kingless would either be able to take over that kingdom as well? I hope somone can clear this up for me.

   By michael on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 04:57 am: Edit Post


hey janny i meant to ask about that. with the oath that arithon was given (by the shandion leaders son???) does that mean he if he appealed to the F7 or they chose that he would become the ruler there. he does have the blood of that kindom doesn't he???

   By Hellcat on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 09:48 am: Edit Post

Redaing Confronations.....

Oh my word


you insist I am cursed? That my half-brother's crimes are all inncocent?

yet again, Lysaer came close to awareness of the curse. Twice in a short space of time he has shown potential to rise above the curse. At the same time we see how even the thought of Arithon could drive him to madness. The potentail for redemption or destruction grow more on either side.

   By Janny Wurts on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 10:35 am: Edit Post

Michael - You Asked.

Arithon and Lysaer both carry the "lineage" of Shand.

Note: the Fellowship sanctioned Arithon for RATHAIN.

Note further: in discussion with Maenalle, COTM, concerning Lysaer in jeopardy handling the Mistwraith, they KNOW that there are other s'Ilessid survivors on Dascen Elur.

If they know this, extrapolate, they are aware of other s'Ahelas descendents there, too.

Straight logic suggests that, knowing this, they'd prefer the bloodline untrammeled with the other royal birth talents of s'Ilessid and s'Ffalenn, given that the legacy left by Dari's descendents is already gifted to a more than prodigious degree...

   By Hannah on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 09:54 pm: Edit Post



Hunter: One other minor point - only baddies died in this book. Mostly we're used to good and misguided people dying in droves. Here the major casualties were the already dead..

I don't know that I would call Raiett Raven a "baddie."

Annette: If Arithon and Lysaer are directly related to the King of Shand (or did I misread that part?) wouldn't that mean that either of them could be granted the High Kingship of Shand? Or did I totally misunderstand?

Well, we have to remember (and by "we" I mean "I") that the monarchies (any title, really) in Athera are not as haphazard as the ones in our history, with the oldest son automatically inheriting, etc. They would probably have to be chosen, and deemed right to be sovreign of that country.

   By Hannah on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 09:54 pm: Edit Post

Shoot! Don't know how I missed Janny's post. Apologies for beating a dead horse. :-\

   By Annette on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 02:22 pm: Edit Post

Thanks guys.

   By Hunter on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 06:50 pm: Edit Post


I view Raiett as a "baddie".. I don't see him as misguided, he's made conscious choices and is/was far more aware of clan lineage and what that meant than many others in the Alliance..

He had the dragon skull wards (any idea where they went?) and actively plotted with Lysaer.

I had originally expected Raiett to play the role now played by Sulfin Evend - someone not blinded by Lysaer's statecraft and charisma, who knew sufficient about the Atheran history and the clan lineages to understand the impact of what was occurring and who could provide a balancing point of view that Lysaer wasn't about to dismiss out of hand.

It will be interesting to see if Sulfin Evend lives to retirement, most others of Lysaer's close acquaintance tend to end up dead.. or undead!

   By Auna on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 07:33 pm: Edit Post

I was surprised by Raiett's swift demise. I didn't expect him to be so quickly overpowered by necromancy and then death. I thought he had a bit more intelligence and sustaining power to cause headaches for Arithon and allies. He was also an interesting character, and I thought (wrongly!) that he'd get more time before getting wacked!

   By Hannah on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 07:59 pm: Edit Post




Yes I know what you mean about expecting him to take SE's current, more enlightened role. That was what I meant in my previous post in the other spoiler thread. Most of us had higher expectations or RR playing a greater role in the story. It just goes once more to show that one can never presume to assume with Janny.

It was his brief interaction with Arithon in the last chapter that gave rise to my comment I guess. Just his suspicion about who the blind bard was, and his reaction to confirmation, I guess. ::shrug::

   By Trys on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 05:32 am: Edit Post


My take on Raitt Raven is that he was very intelligent and very capable and, as is often the case, just a little too full of himself. He wanted power, he reached for power and he got caught unawares... even as Lysaer himself did. In the case of Raitt, he should have known better as he was not without knowledge of and ability in the more esoteric arts. But I suspect he wanted out at the end but just could not see past his beliefs to accept Arithon's help.


   By Hellcat on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 08:09 am: Edit Post

OOOOPS almost forgot the SPOILERS!

I was suprised that Raiett was in colusion (if not an initiate of) the Kralovir. Really suprised because I'd expected him to have a similar integrity to Sulfin, even prehaps to help Sulfin root out that power.

Question to Janny. Was Raiett a willing colaborator with the Necromancers or was he overpowered in some way? (that question is simplistic but more information on Raiett would be interesting.)


   By Janny Wurts on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 01:09 pm: Edit Post

Hellcat - You Asked.


Raiett was a powerful, discerning character. The fact he "fell" so swiftly was, case in point, a shock tactic to demonstrate how DANGEROUSLY INVASIVE and SWIFT the cult's incursive working actually was.

I didn't have a lot of "page length" to waste here, on this one. (reason for many of the scenes, done as "clips" - to Demonstrate a close relationship, or a basis of departure for a MORE powerful scene later on. The later scene would not have had the "kick" or the "depth" to it, without the revealing intimacy of the earlier foundation. So some scenes were close to the bone 'revealing' to get you into that level of emotional intimacy)

WHY was Raiett vulnerable - one must look at what he believed, in close concert with his motivation - WHY he chose to become Lysaer's officer to begin with.

   By Rebel on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 07:42 am: Edit Post


What a heart-racer! Almost finished the first quick read of the book and have come across some niggling questions. I don't remember these things being mentioned in previous books, so was hoping someone could assist. Firstly, in TK we are introduced to Barach who is Jieret's second son. I understood Jieret had two sons. Can anyone enlighten me as to what happened to his first son? He doesn't seem to get a mention. Did I miss something in a previous book?

Also, Feylind and Fiark having children! Ohgosh! When did the time fly? Seriously, how much time has elapsed between last we had serious contact with those two and TK?

The necromancers were such an unexpected twist to the plot - although in retrospect, Janny had been leaving clues throughout previous books. Oh what a devious mind Janny! It intrigues me, though, why they didn't strike before now. Was Lysaer the only 'vehicle' that would have satisfied their purpose?

Only a couple more pages to get through before I start the slow absorbing re-read.


   By Hellcat on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 05:28 am: Edit Post

My take on Raiett.

IIRC from GC when we meet Raiett he is in awe of Lysaer's statesmenship. He is not worried whether or not Lysaer's cause is just. Instead what intrests him is what Lysaer can do with power and what he can do in conjunction with it. Nor does Lysaer seem worried about Raiett's motives. His obvious usefullness outweighs that.

Raiett is drawn by the uses of power and knowledge and will use what tools he had to hand, like the Dragon skulls. That gives the necromancers a postive hook for him, their power is useful. I would also guess that Raiett's natural talent would aguement any power he would gain from dark rituals and possibly make him more susceptable to becoming a cats-paw


   By MJW on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 12:59 pm: Edit Post

And another line
And a third for the charm...

Some random and semi incoherent questions that Traitor's Knot has stirred up...

Although the Kralovir cult has been destroyed, have we really seen the back of them, or of necromancy in general? Given that Janny does nothing without reason (normally several of them at once) what is the destruction of the cult setting the stage for?

How come some of the necromancers managed to survive for millenia? What kept the F7 from intervening earlier, in a similar way to their intervention with the canon at Alestron? Particularly given Kharadmon's ruthlessness in dealing with cultists (sorry for the misquote)?

Why are iyats? Is there a stronger relationship between them and the wraiths on Marak than we've guessed previously? For example, were the iyats the spark of inspiration someone used to come up with Desh'Thiere?

Is there a link between necromancy and Desh'thiere?

   By skeoke on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 08:18 pm: Edit Post

spoiler 1
spoiler 2
spoiler 3
test test test

IIRC, kralovir the width and breadth of the continent were prepared to receive Arithon's, I don't know, death/spirit... The Sorcerers were only in 3 cities. Do you think they incinerated all the kravolir?

What kept the F7....
-- free will
-- compact to protect Athera and the Paravians, not to keep mankind from screwing up. (well, until it directly impacted on the other.) IIRC, black powder had been directly mentioned in the compact (lots of inferring here, actually) as being a direct fore-runner of Calum Kincaid's Great Weapon.

Iyats -- 'cause they were so much fun with Dakar? And even more fun with the Waystone?
Inspiration for Desh'Thiere - I like that!

Last question -- too much for me. I'll bow out now and leave that to my betters.

   By Andrew Ginever on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 08:33 pm: Edit Post


To answer one of your questions on Janny's behalf (since I made the same enquiry by email at one point):


You asked about the s'Valerient family tree.

We know from PG that Barach inherits the Earl of the North title, while Jeynsa becomes Caithdein of Rathain.

TK points out that Barach is Jieret and Feithan's second son.

You're quite right that Jieret and Feithan had two sons and a daughter (FP).

Janny's choice of Barach to inherit a title emphasizes that the clans aren't obliged to have the eldest inherit (instead the one that merits it most inherits: case in point, Alestron with Sevrand as Bransian's heir).

Just to clear things up, you haven't missed anything. All three s'Valerient heirs are still among the living. Janny says the eldest is among the clans "somewhere in Rathain." :-)

   By Janny Wurts on Friday, December 17, 2004 - 10:38 am: Edit Post

Strakewood, Deshir. Naturually.